Comments

Oh please, how in the world is shark fishing sustainable? If one shark is killed and other takes it place instantly the sharks must be breeding like rabbits, which is definitely not the case. They take at least 10-12 years to reach sexual maturity, so how is this instant stock replacement you speak of possible? It is people like you who will be asking/begging for help and redemption when the environment is ruined due to capitalism and greed that you seem to be promoting. Shark products are totally unnecessary for the survival of the human race, so why risk it putting a imperative species in danger just so the human race can make a dollar...it is just disgusting that you would encourage this you should be ashamed of yourself. You need to open your eyes, watch Sharkwater, you will understand your mistakes.

Mr Brumby justifies our population growth rate as an achievement, as a confirmation of his success, but the reality is that this "growth" is artificial and driven by immigration, not confidence in Victoria or our government! People are invited here, assuming a better life than in the developing countries many of them come from! Even they will age! Do we then bring in MORE people when these immigrants age? Isn't this the way to continue to blow out our population numbers totally, by continually replacing older people? The State of the Environment report is damning to Brumby and our high immigration program shows we dangerously lack leaders, and people with integrity, in our government.

Mr Brumby has been hijacked by developers and commercial forces who are only concerned with their self-interests and not the welfare of Victorians, future generations or sustainability. Mr Brumby, who was unelected, needs to step down so a care-taker administrator can take over until we have State elections. He is not listening to his constituents. Victoria is already the most cleared and damaged state and we are running our of water. Logging our ancient native forests in East Gippsland is clearly a broken promise and is totally reckless and unforgiveable! Water catchment areas are stilled logged, but we are supposed to cut household consumption and let our gardens dry! Our biodiversity losses have compromised our on-going ecology, but still more people are flooding spreading suburbs! There cannot be a healthy economy without a healthy and functioning ecosystem, the life-support system for all species. Time to stop Brumby before more damage is done.

Australian voters are dupes who time and time again fail to punish the major parties for ignoring their wishes. With the major parties, big business and the the main stream media all pursuing agendas that are often opposed to those of the public it falls on a few to broadcast the other side of the story and get to the facts unencumbered by vested interests. James Sinnamon exposes very well the media's role in deceiving the wider (largely uninterested public) by promoting the neo- conservative views of its main constituency - big business. Unfortunately his and other internet commentaries reach a far smaller audience than do the mainstream media (and usually that audience is already informed and on side). Still the effort must be made and James' blog is a worthy effort in the fight against the big boys.

What is Anarchism? In his famous book “Alice in Wonderland”, the English writer Lewis Carroll profoundly challenges us to “think” about the power of words. His debate between Humpty Dumpty and Alice over the question of definitions goes like this: “When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said in a rather scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean. Neither more nor less.” “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.” “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “who is to be master. That is all.” (1) Definitions and even more, historical interpretations of them are very enlightening. If we truly open our minds and investigate them, they can tell us a great deal about where we have come from, the degree to which we have become chained to the limitations of our past experiences and after careful consideration, can provide us with “sign-posts”, a potential guide to the barriers that stand in the way of our imagination, especially in our pursuit of what “could-be”. Open any dictionary and you will find definitions of “Anarchy” that contain restrictions to all of these possibilities. Anarchy: “A lack of established government or control, usually leading to disorder”, or, “a general state of disorder or uproar.” Anarchist: “A person who believes that all organized authority should be abolished in the interests of individual freedom.” When we compare these definitions with the original Greek meaning of the word, we can easily see that these are not definitions, but that they are simply interpretations that have developed over time through our ill reasoned experiences and critically, our dogged acceptance of those experiences as the “only” potential reality. Greek: “An” – without + “Arkhos” – a ruler. There is no suggestion here that “Anarchy” is synonymous with disorder or uproar. There is also no suggestion that individual freedom, as implied in the dictionary definitions, must therefore by its very nature, have little regard for one’s personal responsibility to the “whole”. Most Anarchists believe in the absence of “rulers”, not the absence of values or order. The dictionary definitions, used extensively by Governments, the Media and Corporations around the World, limit our thinking and keep us chained to their dominant ideology. “The growing power of a soulless political bureaucracy which supervises and safeguards the life of Human’s from the cradle to the grave, is putting ever greater obstacles in the way of unified co-operation between Human beings and crushing out every possibility of new development. Just as for the various systems of religion, God is everything and Human’s nothing, so for this modern political ideology, the State (and its economics) is everything and the Human (and the environment) nothing. And just as behind the will of God there always lay hidden the will of privileged minorities, so today there hides behind the will of the State (and its economics) only the selfish interests of those who feel called to interpret this will in their own sense and impose it on the people.”(2) (Additions in brackets are the Authors) Why is Anarchy misunderstood? “People are free only if they can choose, and they can choose only if they know enough to compare.” (Anon) Anarchists do not accept authority, and as a consequence, they will not partake in any particular action because they are commanded to. Through a process of direct engagement, Anarchists become personally responsible for examining, through intelligent investigation, contemplation, discussion and consensus, the reasoning behind any action they may take before taking it. This is contrary to most of today’s Society who have been led to believe that it is in their best interests to abnegate that effort and the critical nature of it to others, namely, Governments, God’s, Scientists, Experts or Leaders. The Anarchist approach demands a commitment to lifetime personal growth and maturity, a “growing away” from the historical reliance on either matriarchal or patriarchal (current) Social systems, the “parental” structures that carry with them the false promises, the supposed solutions that will fix all those nasty things that we are mistakenly led to believe we are powerless to personally do anything about; our present Environmental crisis being just one example. Anarchists understand that in order to be empowered, we need to trust in those values that exist deep within us, the instinctual knowledge and inherent wisdom to know what’s right, just and fair. These are not “parental” morals or value judgments and as such don’t require external authorities, ruler’s or god’s to oversee or enforce them. They develop best in Human Beings only through true freedom but most critically, gain profound clarity when that freedom is repeatedly challenged by one’s own deeply felt, personal responsibility to the “whole”. True freedom carries with it great responsibility. When we hand this responsibility over to others, in exchange for false freedoms, we detach ourselves from truly understanding the impact of our actions and we deny ourselves the opportunity to learn from both the sadness and the joy that are uniquely a part of our connection to the “whole”. We are encouraged instead, by those we entrust, to seek “happiness” and “fulfillment” through specialized careers, material consumption, having more babies, finding romance and donating to charities, and our search, never truly realized, simply erodes our natural spirituality (non religious) and connectedness to our instinctual values, each other and our environment ever further. Despite this, it is, amazingly, the Anarchist approach to life that is frequently labeled as idealistic. The majority of Society has been led to see Anarchists as little more than a bunch of dreamers: individuals who have no sense of the “true reality” of the World. This is because, unlike most of Society, Anarchists do not accept prejudiced ideas, that is, ideas that are accepted without question, free examination or prior discussion, the “Growth Economy” being a prime example. The acceptance by Society of “life” as it has been sold to them from birth, leads to an unconscious day to day existence, underpinned by a belief that life “as they know it” appears for all intents and purposes to have existed in that form forever, a given just like oxygen. Therefore anybody who challenges or questions this state of affairs comes to be seen as “unreasonable” or “unrealistic”, because to most of Society, one is only “reasonable” or “realistic” when one acts in conformity and accordance with the prejudiced ideas that are accepted without question by that society. In contrast, Anarchists believe that “reasonable individuals are not those who act, as their contemporaries, in conformity to prejudices, but are those who reserve to themselves the faculty of weighing on all occasions the motives, which will determine their actions.”(3) Anarchy and Direct Action When Anarchists uncover injustice, they are committed to taking direct action against it. Anarchists do not see reform as an option. The reason why is clear. Despite widespread opposition in Australia to the invasion of Iraq, reports like this one below, continue to reveal the arrogance of Governments when it comes to reform. “Under Howard, the defense budget rose from $A10.6 billion in 1995-1996 to $22 billion in the 2007-2008 budget—taking the total to 9.3 percent of government outlays and 2 percent of gross domestic product (GDP). Australia is currently one of the 15 largest military spenders in the world, with annual expenditure that exceeds the combined military spending of all 10 members of the Association of South East Asian Nations—Indonesia, Malaysia, Brunei, Singapore, the Philippines, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos and Burma. Labor’s 2007 “Plan for Defense”, released for the November 24 election, pledged to not only maintain the defense budget at this level, but matched the Howard government’s promise to increase it by 3 percent in real terms every year until 2016. Defense is the only ministry that has been exempted from Labor’s “razor-gang”, which requires every federal department to slash 2 percent of its spending.”(4) Direct action in this case would quite literally mean “putting your money where your mouth is”. This link will take you through to a great example of somebody who is doing just that. Whilst he is not an Anarchist, he has adopted an Anarchistic approach via War Tax Resistance. So how do we develop a more Anarchistic Society? The issues surrounding just why it is that Society acts in conformity in the way that it does are complex and beyond the scope of this introductory piece on Anarchism. We hope to delve into these reasons in a future article, which will include, amongst other topics, areas such as the development of the Human brain. We are given an insight into one potential area of change, by Clive Bell in his thought provoking 1927 essay, “Civilization”, where he examines the value of a liberal education. (Education we use here in its truest sense, that being to “educe” or to “bring out”, which is diametrically opposed to our current system which aims to produce Corporate or Growth Economy “ready” individuals). “From a sense of values comes that desire for, and belief in, a Liberal Education which no (truly) civilized age has been without. The richest and fullest life obtainable, a life that contains the maximum of vivid and exquisite experiences, is the end of every civilized man’s desire. Because he desires it he aims at complete self development and complete self expression: and these are to be achieved only by those who have learnt to think and feel and discriminate, to let the intellect play freely round every subject, and the emotions respond appropriately to all stimuli. Knowledge in addition is needed; for without knowledge the intellect remains the slave of prejudice and superstition, while the emotions sicken on a monotonous and cannibalistic diet. The civilized man desires an education that shall be as direct a means as possible to what alone is good as an end. He cultivates his powers of thinking and feeling, pursues truth and acquires knowledge, not for any practical value that these may possess, but for themselves, or – that I may distinguish him sharply from the date-collector or competition-winner – for their power of revealing the rich and complex possibilities of life. The Philistine, wanting the sense of values, expects education to show him the way to wealth and power, things which are only valuable in so far as they are more or less remote means to that ultimate good whereas a liberal education leads direct. Liberal education teaches us to enjoy life; practical education to acquire “things” that may enable us or someone else to enjoy it.” (5) This passage reveals the great dilemma of our time. On the one hand, Clive Bell promotes the value of deep questioning, thinking and free examination and on the other, signals clearly through the use of the word “Philistine”, a belief that only “certain” individuals can attain a higher level liberal education. In contrast, Anarchists believe that the vast majority of our Society can attain this level of education under the right conditions, indeed, a small number of Human Societies have achieved this in the past; Clive Bell does to his full credit, discuss them in his essay. Unfortunately, from the 1920’s on, elite intellectuals became more prominent and the belief that only “certain” individuals should be doing the “thinking” for our Society developed with them. We are now faced with the situation where every 3 to 4 years we “elect” these select few, along with their intellectual advisory bureaucracies, to do our thinking for us and in between we have little or no say in what takes place. This apparently is Democracy. Many intellectuals today will argue that the problems that Society faces are simply too complex for individuals within that Society to understand and act on and as a consequence, they shouldn’t be involved. This potential outcome was raised by Aldous Huxley in his 1932 classic “Brave New World”, where he vibrantly outlined the developing Utopia, the select few do the thinking and make the decisions whilst the vast majority are kept busy in an orgy of materialistic and physical consumption. Whilst we have not reached the full extent of the utopia described in Huxley’s book, we are well on our way. There is already a dominant belief throughout Society that only Governments and external authorities can do anything about the problems we face and our current level of materialistic consumption needs no further explanation. Over time, Governments and their attendant elite intellectuals have become obsessed with ideology and “the one right way”, the means to ensure the ultimate end. It will therefore come as no surprise to readers that Governments and elite intellectuals do not like the Anarchist approach. Noam Chomsky explains in the following passage just how the intellectuals go about maintaining their powerful position. “On the rare occasions in which I have an opportunity to discuss these issues, whether in print or in person with people in the media or the academic professions, I often find not so much disagreement as an inability to hear. I have found all sorts of strange illusions about, what say my attitude was toward the Vietnam War, because elite intellectuals often simply cannot perceive that one could hold the opinions that I do hold. These are very hard barriers to overcome. There’s a complicated system of illusions and self-deception that are given framework for discussion and debate. And if you don’t happen to take part in that system of illusions and self-deception, what you say is incomprehensible.” He then goes on to explain just why it is that Anarchist perspectives are so threatening to them. “There has not been a very substantial Anarchist intelligentsia. Anarchism is not a position that appeals to elite intellectuals…it does not appeal to their Class interests.”(6) Power, as we know, finds much fertile ground in Class distinctions. In conclusion An Anarchist approach to life, one that continually strives to seek the truth through free examination, investigation, reason, contemplation, engagement in decision- making and direct action against injustice, offers us far greater potential than that of simply being led. We did not ask the hard questions in 1945 or as a result, take direct action to intervene before the dropping of Atomic Bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and because of this we remained ignorant to the fact that only weeks before this appalling event, a vote was taken in the USA on the following question: “Which of the following procedures comes closest to your choice as the way in which any new weapon that we might develop should be used in the Japanese War? (Results in brackets) (1) Use them in the manner that is from the Military point of view most effective in bringing about a prompt Japanese surrender at minimum cost to our own armed forces. (23 votes – 15%) (2) Give a Military demonstration in Japan, to be followed by a renewed opportunity for surrender before full use of the weapon. (69 votes – 46%) (3) Give an experimental demonstration in the USA with representatives of Japan present followed by a new opportunity for surrender before full use of the weapon. (39 votes – 26%) (4) Withhold military use of the weapon but make public experimental demonstration of the effectiveness. (16 votes – 11%) (5) Maintain as secret as possible all developments of our new weapon and refrain from using them in this War. (3 votes – 2%) “Unfortunately the voting, in which 150 persons participated, took place without any previous debate. Consequently, the greatest number of votes were cast for the second alternative suggesting a Military demonstration in Japan. But after the first two bombs had been dropped on the centre of the town of Hiroshima and on Nagasaki, most of the 69 voters explained that they had taken a “Military demonstration in Japan” to mean an attack on purely Military objectives, not on targets occupied also, in fact, mainly by civilians.”(7) By the end of 1945, “the bombs killed as many as 140,000 people in Hiroshima and 80,000 in Nagasaki, roughly half on the days of the bombings. Since then, thousands more have died from injuries or illness attributed to exposure to radiation released by the bombs. In both cities, the overwhelming majority of the dead were civilians.”(8) We did not ask the hard questions of those who supposedly “knew best” before this needless war, neither did the civilians in Germany, England, Italy, France, America or Japan or people of a myriad of other countries involved. And to this day we are still not asking the hard questions. If we truly wish to change that, we need new ways of looking at life. Anarchy could be the means through which we eventually develop far greater congruence between what we know to be right, just and fair and the actions we take in our everyday lives. It holds the promise of breaking the shackles from those who would have us follow. In an Anarchist World of course, that choice would be entirely up to you! (1) “Alice in Wonderland” – Lewis Carroll (2) “The Reproduction of Daily Life” – Rudolph Rocker (3) “What is Anarchism – Who are the Anarchists” - Australian Branch of the Groupes D'Etudes Scientifiques, Ralph Carterer, Sydney, 1913. (4) (5) “Civilization” – Clive Bell, Pelican Books, 1927 (6) “The Chomsky Reader” – Noam Chomsky. (7) “Brighter than a thousand suns” – Robert Jungk, Penguin Special 1960 (8)

it's here: couple of relevant paragraphs... Any discussion of unemployment must address the impact upon the supply of labour in the 1980s caused by high immigration and the increase in the number of women, particularly women with dependent children, entering the paid work force. Net immigration from 1982 to 1992 was just over one million people--an increase of nearly 50 per cent on the previous decade. In the past decade the female work force participation rate has increased by 40 per cent. Since July 1984 the number of married women in the labour force with dependent children has increased by 27 per cent. Government policies have played a big part in the significant increase in the supply of labour in the last decade which puts an even greater responsibility upon the federal government to have policies which result in a high demand for labour. Immigration has declined to a net 62,700 in 1992-93 and, in my view, should stay within that figure into the foreseeable future. Women are now reaping the benefits of years of struggle to achieve equal opportunity in the paid work force. However, I have a particular concern for those women with dependent children who have been forced by economic circumstance to seek paid employment when they would prefer to be concentrating on their role as mothers and homemakers.. Oh well, it didn't turn out that way, when his party (Liberal party) in coalition with the Nationals were in power 1996-2007 immigration exploded. This speech is from 1993 while they were in opposition.

Date: 27-9-1999, (Full references at end of this excerpt from Hansard)

So, maybe it wasn't a maiden speech, but here it is - quite feisty and an historic and ironic document, considering where the Liberal Party later took us with immigration numbers and now the Rudd Labor government's massive and undemocratic population push:

Senator MINCHIN (South Australia) (7.20 p.m.) —I wish to speak tonight on a matter which I regard as a serious deficiency in Australian public life; that is, our lack of any population policy. I am moved to speak on this subject by a recent news report on immigration to Australia in 1994-95. The Adelaide Advertiser reported on 7 September 1995 that figures released by the Bureau of Immigration, Multicultural and Population Research showed a 25 per cent increase in immigration from the previous year. That is an extraordinary increase in one year. What is also extraordinary is that it was largely ignored by the media and by the parliament. It does appear that immigration is, in fact, a no-go area in Australia.

There were 87,428 immigrants in 1994-95 compared with 69,768 in the previous year. The bureau notes that nearly half the immigrants are still going to New South Wales—43 per cent to New South Wales; nearly twice as many as go to the next highest state, Victoria, which received 22 per cent. I think that is quite interesting in the light of New South Wales Premier Carr's recent comments on the population problems, as he sees them, in New South Wales.

The concern raised by the latest figures is the fact that such a big increase in the immigration intake has occurred while unemployment in this country remains so high. We had an MPI on that subject today. Unemployment is still at 8.3 per cent—a very high level. There are still nearly three-quarters of a million Australians who cannot get work but who want it. The economy is slowing down. It is being deliberately slowed down by the government. So the likelihood is that unemployment will at some point start to rise again. Even the government's budget, which one must say is an optimistic document, admits that unemployment will not be less than eight per cent by June next year.

Yet, in the face of all that—three-quarters of a million unemployed—the government is accelerating the immigration program. I am not talking about whether there is immigration or not; I am talking about the pace of the increase in immigration. To have a 25 per cent increase in one year really makes no sense to the Australian community in the face of the very high level of unemployment. It particularly does not make much sense when you note—as I do not think many Australians do—that the unemployment rate for migrants who have arrived in the last five years is 22 per cent. That means that almost one in four of recent migrants who wish to obtain a job cannot get a job and are unemployed.

In fact, the unemployment rate for all migrants who arrived in the last 20 years—that is, since 1976—is above the national unemployment rate of 8.3 per cent. Yet, in the face of all that, the government is proposing another increase. We see that in 1995-96, the current financial year, the government has set aside an extra 14,000 places, which will take immigration back over the 100,000 mark. I just do not know how the government can justify such a rapid increase in immigration when we still have three-quarters of a million Australians who cannot find work. I really wonder what the trade unions think of all this.

The real issue, in my view, is that the government is threatening what is fragile community support for a big immigration program by this sort of rapid increase in the intake. I note that the community has really already given up on Labor on this issue of immigration. The Newspoll survey published on 20 September, which sought the attitudes of people to the handling of various issues by Labor and the coalition, showed that voters think that the coalition can handle the issue of immigration better than Labor.

That is not a surprising finding when you look at what has been an extraordinary roller-coaster ride on immigration under Labor—incredible fluctuations in numbers year by year. The net migration in Labor's first year, 1984, was 49,000; by 1988, only four years later, it was 149,000—an extraordinary increase in four years. In 1989 it was 157,000; in 1990 it went back to 124,000; and in 1991 it went down to 86,000. It is just like the big dipper at Luna Park.

Former finance minister Peter Walsh was very revealing in his book about the way this government conducts immigration policy. He noted in his book that it took five years of this government before it even had a major debate on immigration. It said:

Early in 1988, the first major cabinet debate on immigration took place.

He then says, in looking back over the five years at that point:

Thus three sequences of blow outs and cave-ins boosted arrivals from 70 to 115 thousand. The next year—

that is 1989—

it blew out again to 140 thousand. Apart from the unplanned and unintended doubling of numbers in four years, the composition at the instigation of the ethnic mafia, also changed towards `family reunion', which debased migrant employability. Frequent Ministerial changes—four Ministers in the first five years—did not facilitate the development of coherent on-going policy.

An understatement, if ever there was one.

This is the hopeless adhockery of immigration policy which former Labor minister Peter Walsh complained of and which Barry Jones in his own report—a very interesting report on Australia's population carrying capacity—complained of. The report is by the National President of the Labor Party, and the committee has a majority of Labor members on it. Its recommendation No. 2 is well worth reading in the light of what I regard as this ad hoc approach to immigration. Mr Jones's committee recommended:

The Australian Government should adopt a population policy which explicitly sets out options for long term population change, in preference to the existing situation where a de facto population policy emerges as a consequence of year by year decisions on immigration intake taken in an ad hoc fashion, such decisions being largely determined by the state of the economy in the particular year and with little consideration of the long term effects.

There is your own national president—the national president of the party in government—describing his government's policy as ad hoc. I strongly support that committee's recommendation. I note that it was a recommendation from a majority of government members. It is about time the government responded to that report in full, not just the interim report we have had.

I want to indicate tonight my personal support for committee option IV in looking at the future for Australia. Option IV was for a stable population in the possible range of 17 million to 23 million, which the committee notes has `strong community support'. I do not think anyone in Australia can read Tim Flannery's outstanding book The Future Eaters and not recognise the significant environmental limits to Australia's population carrying capacity—that is really what was being referred to in the Jones report.

Very interestingly, New South Wales Labor Premier Bob Carr referred to this matter in May. I want to quote what he said about all this. He said:

. . . the debate ought to be about the carrying capacity of the continent—a continent that has lousy soils, fragile vegetation and depleted and degraded river systems.

I do not often agree with Labor premiers, but I must agree with Mr Carr. I suspect that, like me, Premier Carr has read The Future Eaters and been moved by what he read. What was very sad was the condemnation that Mr Carr incurred right across Australia. It was a disgraceful example of the sort of intimidation and intolerance—

Senator Bob Collins interjecting—

Senator MINCHIN —Certainly. The criticism of Mr Carr was not confined to people outside the Liberal Party. I condemn everyone who attacked Mr Carr for making a very sensible contribution to what is an important debate in Australia, and a debate we have to have. It is very sad that in Australia, allegedly a free democracy, a bloke like Bob Carr cannot make those sorts of comments without being attacked from all sides.

In my view, both major parties, including my own, need to recognise the need for a population policy and need to recognise that the immigration program that the government, of whatever colour, presides over must be determined within the context of that population policy, which, as Mr Jones says, is not the case at the moment. The population policy that the government has, whether it is Labor or coalition, must recognise the real constraints on our continent's carrying capacity.

Here are the references for the speech:

Immigration, Database, Senate Hansard, Date 27-09-1995, Source Senate Parl No.
Electorate SA, Page 1608, Adjournment, System ID, chamber/hansards/1995-09-27/0175

http://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/search/display/display.w3p;adv=;db=CHAMBER;group=;holdingType=;id=chamber%2Fhansards%2F1995-09-27%2F0175;orderBy=_fragment_number;page=;query=(Dataset%3Ahansards%20SearchCategory_Phrase%3A%22senate%22)%20Context_Phrase%3A%22adjournment%22%20Electorate_Phrase%3A%22sa%22%20Speaker_Phrase%3A%22senator%20minchin%22;querytype=;rec=4;resCount=

Sheila Newman, population sociologist

So far I have located three references to Minchin stating he is a fan of Tim Flannery's Future Eaters (1994). The first was cited above, in People and place article. The second, I found in a Bulletin article - bulletin.syd.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=129610, dated Wednesday, October 31, 2001, and this one (which doesn't directly refer to population) I found in Hansard, - Wednesday 25 March, 1998, p.1277. Each of these publications refers to some anterior first statement - without actually giving its date and location. Call me tenacious, but this just makes me think that there must be an earlier speech and that it was made to parliament. Where the record is, I cannot imagine. In the last, parliamentary publication, it is Minchin himself who acknowledges his fondness for Flannery. (Flannery's book was all about how we should not grow Australia's population and that, long term, perhaps 6 million might be the sustainable number. - He didn't take decline in fossil fuels into account. The number might be around 1 million without fossil fuels. There is also a very interesting old Four Corners transcript (5-11-2002) with Bob Carr, Minchin, Barney Foran, Ted Trainer all talking about water, population and greenhouse gas. It is great that we have the internet with such records, so handy. It would be good to stimulate more questions. What an enigma - what ever became of Minchin's concerns about population? What the hell happened to the debate? I think I know part of the answer and that is that the growth industry - of property development, engineering and construction corporate lobbies, aided and abetted by the major media - simply managed to promote any politician who talked up growth and buried any politician who talked it down. So perhaps the few who had some brains on the subject changed their tune. Others may have other explanations for the changed tune. Sheila Newman, population sociologist

Okay, still haven't located that parliamentary speech, but here's some more evidence of his historic outlook, which should be of interest:

This is from Katherine Betts and Michael Guilding, “The Growth lobby and Australia’s immigration policy”People and Place, vol. 14, no. 4, 2006, page 45
http://www.population.org.au/issues/Growth_lobby_and_immigration.pdf
Though immigration had become very unpopular in the early 1990s it was not an issue in the March 1996 election. After its victory, however, the Howard Government embarked on a program of immigration reform, including a reduction in numbers.24 By 1999, public hostility to immigration had eased considerably.25 But the moderate decrease in migrant numbers meant that business leaders, long accustomed to high immigration as a matter of course, found themselves in new territory. The advent of a non-Labor, presumably pro-business, government which reduced the intake in fair economic times was novel.

Disquiet in business circles was apparent in a 2001 interview conducted with Senator Nick Minchin, Industry Minister and a member of Howard's cabinet. The journalist, Maxine McKew, reported that Minchin was a convinced immigration skeptic and very aware of business pressure on the Government to increase migrant intake:

But he [Minchin] parts company [with business] on a key point that's advanced by many corporate leaders and industry bodies-the need to dramatically increase our population. Can a market of a mere 20 million, it's argued, ever really be taken seriously? Over and over the message from business is the same. Entrepreneurial cultures welcome immigrants on the basis of a simple proposition: who knows where the talent might be? Minchin clearly is unimpressed. 'With great respect to business, they speak, not unnaturally, completely out of selfinterest.
They want more people to sell more widgets to. But there is a world of 6 billion customers out there, so I say: “Get out there and sell to the world”'. It's time, Minchin says, that Australian business 'stopped trying to bully governments and the Australian people into a view that we should double our population'. This must go down a treat with assorted CEOs, I suggest. 'Whenever I have this debate with businessmen, I say, for God's sake, read Tim Flannery's The Future Eaters.
The fact is there are severe physical limitations in terms of the population we can sustain on this continent'. You sound like … Bob Carr. 'Bob and I have a lot in common on this issue. But it is all there in Tim's book. We made this mistake with European colonisation, we all tried to believe we could live like Europeans and fare like Europeans. But this ain't Europe.
It's a desert'.

Sheila Newman, population sociologist

Your posting is dated Nov 24th so can we assume that you purchased these shares within the last month when priced at .01c each, paying $200 for the 20.000. So what did you expect when buying shares which the internet advised were listed in July at $1. Did you get some professional advice before setting out on this lunatic journey or even do a reasonable web search to get the full story? The world is full of idiot people who can't be saved from themselves. This is how "this situation can be allowed to happen"

Found this one, which demonstrates his purported attitude:

http://www.csiro.au/files/mediarelease/mr1999/FutureMakersFutureTakers.htm
Media Release - Ref 1999/60 - Mar 31 , 1999
Future Makers, Future Takers: Life in Australia 2050

There are three political strategies, and three alternative routes on the road-map to Australia's future.

That's the choice offered by a CSIRO scientist in a new book that attempts to give a rational guide to getting Australia to the year 2050 in good shape.

"Today's Australians have to consider the big choices which will ensure that our grand-children have a good quality of life," says Minister for Science and Technology Senator Nick Minchin.

"Should we be going down an economic prosperity path using a strategy of self-regulated markets and small government? Or should we be following the 'conservative development' path of active intervention by a strong central government?

"Or the third alternative, 'post-materialism', putting a cap on development and the economy, and building political and business structures which are based on stakeholder participation and collaboration."

Senator Minchin today launched the new book by Dr Doug Cocks of CSIRO Wildlife and Ecology, Future Makers, Future Takers. Dr Cocks creates three hypothetical political parties - the Conservative Development Party, the Economic Growth Party, and the Post-Materialism Party. He gives each party a detailed policy platform, and rigorously draws out the consequences of each of them getting into power.

The book is subtitled 'Life in Australia 2050'.

Dr Cocks emphasizes that he does not favour any one particular option of the three that he presents, and he asks readers to "resist going partisan, as soon as they think they know which strategy best reflects their political allegiances."

According to Senator Minchin, Future Makers, Future Takers is likely to stimulate important discussion about Australia's future directions.

"While there has been lively community debate about a number of matters of political form, decisions which we take today will have a real and material effect on the way our children and grandchildren will live their lives," says Senator Minchin.

"Although Doug Cocks is careful to avoid taking sides in his three scenarios, he is urgently concerned about the need to avoid 'short-termism' when choosing paths to our nation's future," says Senator Minchin.

"The way we educate our children today will determine their capacity to find employment and fulfilment as adults. Big infrastructure projects like airports and the Very Fast Train will still be operating in fifty years, and will have profound effects on population densities," says Senator Minchin.

"We need to consider, today, the consequences of continuing our relatively rapid population growth. Do we want the mega-cities which could be the consequence of a large-scale immigration program?" asks Senator Minchin. "What will our grandchildren inherit of our natural environment? Are today's government decisions going to have the effect of ensuring sustainability and profitability in industries such as mining, forestry, and agriculture in fifty years time?"

According to Senator Minchin, Future Maker, Future Takers will become a valuable handbook for all Australians concerned with future policy directions, and should be closely studied by politicians, and their advisers, of all political persuasions.

Future Makers, Future Takers will be launched by Senator Minchin on Wednesday 31 March at 5.30, in the Mural Hall, Parliament House, Canberra.

It is published by the University of New South Wales Press, and costs $39.95.
Review copies are available from Maria Foster on (02) 9664 0909 or email [email protected]

More information from:
Dr Doug Cocks 02-6242 1741
David Salt 02-6242 1645
0419 283 154
Monica van Wensveen 02-6242 1651
0418 168 535

*Note that to attend the launch you will need a Parliamentary pass. This can be arranged by
calling Shona Miller before 1.30 pm on Wednesday 31 March

Shona Miller 02-6242 1681

Contacts
Mr Nick Goldie
Journalist
PO Box 225
Dickson ACT 2602
Phone: +61 2 6276 6478
Fax: +61 2 6276 6821
Mobile: 0417 299 586
Email: [email protected]

Ms Monica van Wensveen
Communicator
CSIRO Sustainable Ecosystems
GPO Box 284
Canberra ACT 2601
Phone: +61 2 6242 1651
Fax: +61 2 6242 1555
Mobile: 0417 561 802
Email: [email protected]

Sheila Newman, population sociologist

This is bizarre. I have read the speech I referred to. It was passed around in anti-population growth circles. I would now need to go through all his speeches, say, prior to 2000. I also read speeches he gave as minister for Science and technology (or similar portfolio) where he suggested that business should focus more on export than on growing local population. I also met him at a SPA conference years ago. Thanks for letting me know... I'll see how I can correct this. Sheila Newman, population sociologist

The biggest problem with all these synthetic 'solutions' to increasing water demand is that they are (a) technologically complex (b) financially costly to build and to maintain. No government is there forever. No government can guarantee that complex water recycling will be maintained three years hence, let alone flawlessly to perpetuity. The governments in this country have forced upon us a terrible problem of continuous population growth which they are not able to manage now and which will present even more problems in the future. We can expect all complex technology to be allowed to fall to pieces, no matter what the consequences, as costs go up with fuel scarcity and economic decline. I personally can think of no greater crime than to jeopardise the peoples' drinking water by knowingly increasing the demand for it to a point requiring complex technology and economic surplus to maintain it. Our leaders and all those responsible should be put on trial for increasing the risks to our lives and needlessly complicating how we obtain basic resources. Sheila Newman, population sociologist

As pointed out by James Sinnamon I erred somewhat in stating that water has been recycled for drinking purposes in a number of other places. Water recycled directly for drinking has, as far as I can make out from my limited investigations, only been undertaken in Windhoek, Namibia where it has not had any known adverse health effects. Nonetheless some scientific studies have been performed on recycled water used for purposes other than drinking in an effort to determine whether they contain potentially dangerous contaminants. None of the studies I was able to dig up found any evidence of potentially harmful contaminants. Even so the scientists were unable to declare the water was safe to drink as it was impossible to test for everything. There will always be the known unknowns and the unknown unknowns - a bit like trying to guarantee all the cyclists in the Tour de France are free of drugs. In Perth, CSIRO and others are working on a number of aspects of blending recycling water into our aquifers for possible future incorporation into the drinking water supply. I attended a forum on the issue and I came away with the impression that those responsible for trying to find contaminants in the water and who, up until then had been unable to do so, would have been quite happy to drink the stuff themselves although they could not go so far as to declare that it would indeed be safe to do so. From a health point of view my main concern would be that the government would allow testing standards to slip over time by, eg under-resourcing the body responsible for maintaining standards ( and it should be an independent body) or ignoring breaches etc. And heaven forbid they ever privatize the facility(ies). (Read The Blue Covenant by Maude Barlow.)

Hi Kadet,

They are on the way. It would be great to claim that I have simply been building the suspense but alas, there is greater complexity than that. I have nearly finished the intro piece regarding Anarchy and will post it, with some relevant links, very soon!

Regards
Andrew

"We will never meet our Kyoto obligations while we continually compensate for our "ageing population"!" Indeed. As Bob Birrell and Ernest Healy concluded, there is simply no point even trying to reduce Australia's carbon emissions unless population growth is drastically curbed. Monash researchers Bob Birrell and Ernest Healy used computer modelling to predict the effect of population and economic growth on greenhouse emissions. If no carbon trading scheme is introduced, Australian emissions will reach 797 million tonnes - or four times Labor's target - by 2050, the researchers found. Emissions would only fall to 502 million tonnes if the nation managed to cut carbon intensity levels by one per cent a year under a tough cap and trade scheme. "The problem with radical decarbonisation proposals is the limited political feasibility of these measures,'' the authors said. "It is hard to understand why the population driver has been ignored in the recent debate, including the work of the Garnaut climate change review.'' The authors said that net migration would contribute to most of the 50 per cent increase in Australia's population over the next 40 years. "Like all Australians they'll be living at twice the standard of living of current residents if the Government's predictions for per capita economic growth are correct,'' they said. "Clearly, it's not possible to achieve the Government's target of 60 per cent reduction in emissions at the same time we add an extra 10 million people living at twice the current income level.'' The authors called for immigration to be slashed, and the population stabilised at about 22 million by 2050.

Barry Cohen, former federal Labor MP, makes a strong case against further immigration-fuelled population growth:

Danger in growth for growth's sake

Barry Cohen
August 06, 2007

Scene: The House of Representatives
Date: 29-5-2007
Time: 2pm
Program: Question Time

IS the Prime Minister aware that the basic reasons for the introduction of Australia's excellent immigration policy by the Chifley government in 1946 and continued by successive Liberal governments are considered by many people to be no longer applicable? Does he realise that vast population increases, once considered highly desirable, are now being questioned due to the pressure it places on education, health and social welfare services, housing and land prices and the consequent diminution in the quality of life that overcrowded cities have on our environment? Will his Government bring down a white paper on immigration so that a cost-benefit evaluation can be made?

Good question isn't it? It shows that at least one backbencher is on the ball and understands the crisis Australia is facing. There's one problem. I lied about the date. The question was asked on June 10, 1970. Modesty prevents me naming the prescient backbencher.

The prime minister, who, at the time, happened to be John Gorton, was shocked at the question and appalled that it had been asked by a Labor MP. Fred Daly, then Labor's shadow immigration minister, was none too pleased either. Questioning Labor's sacred post-war immigration policy was not on his or his colleagues' agenda.

All had been nurtured, since World War II, on three fundamental beliefs: that Australia, having just fought a war of survival with the Japanese, had to substantially increase its population to ensure that it had the numbers to defeat "the yellow hordes" who were casting their greedy eyes in Australia's direction; to justify our occupation of the vast open spaces and to provide a substantial population that would enable our manufacturing industries to develop the economies of scale that would enable us to compete with the world's large economies: the US, Britain, Europe and Japan.

All of the above was conventional wisdom among Australia's political parties. It ensured bi-partisanship no matter who was in government. "Populate or perish" was our national slogan.

Gradually, Australians came to realise that basing Australia's defence on population increases was beginning to look ridiculous. With billions on our doorstep a few million extra Australians would make little difference. Increased trade, cultural exchange and diplomacy would have far greater effect.

So too with the economies of scale argument that gradually disappeared as our manufacturing industry wilted under the pressure of the Asian tigers. Mining, agriculture, tourism, education and specialised manufacturing that did not require large numbers of low-paid employees, ensured a growing and prosperous economy.

As the old argument faded a new reason emerged for increasing our population. As medical science extended the average life span, an increased population was essential to support the swelling ranks of the retired. It is no surprise the business community enthused about that one. Immigration provided them with a continually expanding market with little effort on their part.

At the same time, while there was growing concern about the deterioration in the quality of life, particularly in our cities, there was little public debate about the cause of the deterioration: more and more people. Very few made the connection.

In 1970, when Australia's population was about 12 million (it was 5 million when I was born in 1935), in a speech in reply to the budget, I asked: "We all know that if we follow unthinkingly the present program we will reach almost any figure we care to name - 25, 50, 100, 200 million and so on. But the question is when? Will it be by the year 2000, 2050, 2100, 2200 or 2300?"

After my speech, the then minister for immigration, Phillip Lynch, invited me to his office to ask me what I was on about. I told him: "You can't have an immigration policy divorced from a population policy. Growth for growth's sake is nonsense. It's a question of how many people Australia can contain and still maintain a high quality of life." We should be asking, "What is Australia's optimum population, when should we get there and what do we do when we arrive? Slay the first born?"

Shortly afterwards Lynch announced the appointment of W. D. Borrie to head up an inquiry into Australia's population. Unfortunately, when the final report was tabled in 1978 it made no recommendations about numbers, merely stating that there were various schools of thought that favoured population levels ranging from 14 million to 50 million.

In the decades that followed nothing much changed and then suddenly the debate about climate change exploded. Headlines daily scream about greenhouse gases, global warming, water shortages, air and water pollution, urban congestion and so on. What had, for years, been primarily the concern of the dark greens overnight became mainstream. The worst drought in our history suggests the Cassandras might be right. Even the sceptics, agree that action must be taken.

What is bizarre about the debate is that rarely is the connection made between the apocalyptic scenario painted by eminent scientists and the demand for a greatly expanded population. Why is that?

In part because public figures are nervous that any call by them for a slowdown in population growth will be interpreted as less immigrants which the multicultural lobby will call racism. That is nonsense but it will bedevil any attempt to develop a concerted attack on the environmental catastrophe many believe Australia is facing.

If our population continues to expand over the next 40 years as it has during the previous 40, by 2050 Australia will have a population more than 40 million. If that happens, all the solutions now being proposed by politicians and public figures won't amount to a hill of beans.

Barry Cohen was a federal Labor MP from 1969 to 1990.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22193118-7583,00.html

(The following comment has been adapted from an e-mail I received yesterday. - JS) I was listening to ABC radio yesterday and they announced on the Madonna King programme that Fluoride was being released into Brisbane water supply from 1st December and will complete the full implementation on 31st December. Having recently moved to Australia from the UK I am horrified to learn that we are about to be mass medicated with Sodium Fluoride. I have written to my local MP to find out more, but was hoping that I could join an action group to bring a stop to this senseless practice. I mentioned in my letter a recent study published in the British Medical Journal and the latest warning from the American Dental Association not to prepare infant food with fluoridated water. There are so many published scientific papers warning of the dangers and proven data that tooth decay rates are no different in countries that do not fluoridate water. Why are they choosing to ignore the health concerns of Australian people?

The case of Peanut the dog is just a drop in the ocean in comparison to the crimes against animals that human perpetrate. This puppy has cognitive skills, feelings, pain, and in no way can abortion really weigh more in favour of a life that is more 'developed'. Torture against animals occurs in our midst - though it is only when a domesticated pet animal is tortured that we shudder with the thought, while being happy to serve and eat the carcass of another tortured animal. While I fully agree that the court case against the perpetrators should reach the maximum penalty, I just hope people may realize the conditions in which farmed animals live and consider the parallels to the case and death of Peanut...

As an American, I am deeply troubled by my country's ridiculous rates of immigration.

Rampant population growth threatens our economy and quality of life. Immigration, both legal and illegal, are fueling this growth.

I'm not talking just about the obvious problems that we see in the news - growing dependence on foreign oil, carbon emissions, soaring commodity prices, environmental degradation, etc. I'm talking about the effect upon rising unemployment and poverty in America.

I should introduce myself. I am the author of a book titled To make a long story short, my theory is that, as population density rises beyond some optimum level, per capita consumption of products begins to decline out of the need to conserve space. People who live in crowded conditions simply don’t have enough space to use and store many products. This declining per capita consumption, in the face of rising productivity (per capita output, which always rises), inevitably yields rising unemployment and poverty.

This theory has huge implications for U.S. policy toward population management, especially immigration policy. Our policies of encouraging high rates of immigration are rooted in the belief of economists that population growth is a good thing, fueling economic growth. Through most of human history, the interests of the common good and business (corporations) were both well-served by continuing population growth. For the common good, we needed more workers to man our factories, producing the goods needed for a high standard of living. This population growth translated into sales volume growth for corporations. Both were happy.

But, once an optimum population density is breached, their interests diverge. It is in the best interest of the common good to stabilize the population, avoiding an erosion of our quality of life through high unemployment and poverty. However, it is still in the interest of corporations to fuel population growth because, even though per capita consumption goes into decline, total consumption still increases. We now find ourselves in the position of having corporations and economists influencing public policy in a direction that is not in the best interest of the common good.

The U.N. ranks the U.S. with eight other countries - India, Pakistan, Nigeria, Democratic Republic of Congo, Bangladesh, Uganda, Ethiopia and China - as accounting for fully half of the world’s population growth by 2050. The U.S. is one of the few developed countries still experiencing third world-like population growth, most of which is due to immigration. It's absolutely imperative that our population be stabilized, and that's impossible without dramatically reining in immigration, both legal and illegal.

If you’re interested in learning more about this important new economic theory, I invite you to visit my web site at where you can read the preface, join in my discussion and, of course, purchase the book if you like. (It's also available at Amazon.com.)

Please forgive the somewhat spammish nature of the previous paragraph. I just don't know how else to inject this new perspective into the immigration debate without drawing attention to the book that explains the theory.

Pete Murphy
Author, "Five Short Blasts"

There will be no "diplomatic resolution" of the whaling dispute with Japan, despite Foreign Minister Steven Smith’s reassurances! Diplomatic pressure has continued for years without success. Japan is defiantly planning to continue their illegal killings, despite our government's shallow and empty promises. Killing whales or other species while in the Antarctic is a violation the Whale Sanctuary and the Antarctic Treaty. Southern Ocean patrols normally detect and apprehend illegal fishing vessels. However, Japan's illegal whaling vessels have been given immunity! Direct and legal action is ruled out due to our “friendship” with Japan. Sea Shepherd’s “terrorist” tactics are an embarrassment to our government as their harmless tricks have been successful in saving many whales, whereas they have failed. With stockpiles of whale meat already, it must be obvious that their whaling is more than the need of meat. A cherished "cultural heritage" of whale killings is nonsense and they were never traditionally killed with harpoons in the Antarctic! Japan is blatantly defying the West to "normalise" the IWC and secure a strategic presence in this area.

There are many small "home "investors who through trading internet sites such as Commsec, bought these shares without any warning or knowledge given of the future instalments......There is NO mention on the Commsec site that tells you that you will be "sued" for further instalments which in our particular case is "$400000 !!!! We are in a nightmare as are several others who will be SUED for even "MORE money which they dont have !!! How can this situation be allowed to happen ??

Whenever a dog savages a child I wonder how the dog was treated. If we balanced up all the 'crimes' of dogs (animals which live extremely constrained lives of great self-discipline) with all the crimes of humans against dogs, I think that dogs would come out stratospherically on top. Sheila Newman, population sociologist

The ultimate dilemma is positioned beautifully between two excerpts from Greg’s post. “The notion that people can successfully interact as rational individuals, and thereby successfully manage complex socio-political conditions is one that many thinking people irrationally believe.” And “BTW, Garrett is a lawyer, ex-rock star, and born-again Christian. What reason or ethic does that portfolio demonstrate and where does anyone get the idea that he has been so suddenly slipstreamed into such high office for any other reason than the grandeur and prominence the gig offers him, as well as the public glamour and the willing compliance he provides to his employers?” Which of these is true? Because of the complex "chicken or egg" issues surrounding the Amygdala, I agree with Greg’s critique that the "end game" scenario’s that dominate the leftist cyberspace are of little or no value. In fact, they simply add to the emotional attachment that most Human’s have to their Amygdala. It is only when one comes across publications at a local level, namely those of "The Anarchist Savants" February 2008 Edition, that one starts to understand that if change is to occur, it must occur through good quality information at "a local level". But there appears to be no end to the number of "intellectuals" interested in critiquing other "intellectuals" comments, far more than there are those who are actually do the "educing" work at a local level. In relation to James's comments, we do have a choice as to whether we interact with remote institutions, what we frequently don't have is the courage to realize that we can make the choice not to and to get on with the job ourselves. Regards Andrew

Kulu is wrong at least in regard to water recycling.

The residents of Toowoomba were indeed intended to be guinea pigs in the consumption of recycled water. This was explicitly stated in a document released under FOI legislation which stated that Toowoomba residents was to be the "living laboratory". (I can't precisely date or say who snet it ot whom, but it was show in a presentation by Snow Manners at the of 15 November.)

It was a "living laboratory" because, contrary to the misinformation spread by Beattie, no-one else in the world uses recycling water for drinking. Singapore makes use of some recycled water, but, by law, it must be piped into the house separately. It is not used in London, although in Essex they have water recycling facilities which are only meant to be used in extreme drought conditions.

Nevertheless I think your point, that at least one unpalatable alternative must be adopted to get us back out of the hole that the Queensland Government and their corporate masters have gotten us into until we stabilise our population, is a good one.

It seems to me that the least undesirable of all the alternatives would be simply to endure whatever water restrictions we need to to get through our water crisis. The alternatives of more dams, mining underground aquifers, desalination plants or piping water in from far away will only make our circumstances worse in the longer term.

Copyright notice: Reproduction of this material is encouraged as long as the source is acknowledged.

The scale problem, as Greg intimates, is huge, and the drive to replace local government with state government increases that gap. The less direct control communities can have over their representatives, the less possibility for real input. The futher away from communities they administer the politicians and public servants are; the less they care about the impact their stupid policies have. Big government is very close to big business. The solution is to relocalise; to put everything towards downsizing and relocalising government; catchment areas and business operations. This also will assist with sane policy on environment, population numbers and transport, energy, biodiversity and agriculture.

James The comments of mine that you have quoted and replied to do not aim to declare a futility in trying, although that does render as a tearful watermark to the more 'positive' implication. That more positive implication is a view of the necessary targets for our action and intended outcomes. Social processes and structures have to be configured and demanded such that they correlate with evident human reality. We have to stop tolerating or postulating toward things that experience clearly proves cannot be humanly managed. We just dig the hole deeper at best and consign ourselves to oblivion at worst.

I largely agree with Greg's comment.

However, the danger is the implication contained within it that it may be altogether impossible for grass-roots activists to stop our society heading towards the cliff as it appears to be because of the scale of our political structures which are the consequence of overpopulation. As Greg put it:

... The 'masses' are both too massive, and too remote from their careless leaders to be functionally competent in their social synthesis and embrace of 'the truth' in any matter. Additionally, the dynamic architecture of these matters is generally too complex and too remote from peoples' daily lives to successfully grasp within social processing modes.

The notion that people can successfully interact as rational individuals, and thereby successfully manage complex socio-political conditions is one that many thinking people irrationally believe.

All available evidence suggests that, to be effective, society must be functionally autonomous at a scale that is sufficiently intimate, inclusive and interpersonally accountable to enable the full inclusion and genuine respect of the emotional realities operative within the ALL of the human consciousness affected by the matters being decided.

It may prove to be correct that we simply won't be able to 'successfully manage complex socio-political conditions', but we don't yet know that for certain and unless we do we stand no chance of being able to pull our society back from the brink.

So, it is imperative that all of us engage together with other like-minded people with whatever political institutions we can until we have taken control of those institutions out of the hands of our global wealthy elites before it is too late.

Ideally it should happen in local communities where the scale of political institutions are (or were before the of 2007 in Queensland). However, this is not possible for many. Often the local communities themselves have become corrupted and grass-roots activists find themselves in the minorities and often ostracised at that. Even when this is not the case, local Governments can still be over-ruled by their state and federal governments who tend to be more firmly in the pockets of corporations.

So, one way or another, we have no choice but to engage with these 'complex and remote' institutions such as state governments, federal governments and even such international governance bodies as the United Nations.

Copyright notice: Reproduction of this material is encouraged as long as the source is acknowledged.

There's a lot worth commenting upon in this post but much of it, i.e. how to act to reduce population, deserves a dedicated post or even structured series of posts. It can't be addressed within any summary comment. Thus I'll comment on just a couple of things. One reveals the immense power of perspective to both energise and restrict our approach to or response within any vital discussion. Suzuki's comments on arbitrary political borders in relation to dynamic resources such as rivers, forests etc. can be seen in various ways. Dave responds to just one of these, a tacit advocacy for no borders, and assumes this to be Suzuki's intent. The comment can also be seen simply as a simple observation of evident fact, or even as a tacit advocacy for border re-alignment commensurate to bio-physical realities. Personally I'd bet Suzuki's understanding of ecology would align him with this first alternative view, and possibly even the second. The point being that the diversion consumes a lot of bandwith within a hugely important and already vexed topic. How we manage and review our own personal perspectives within any contention of great import is a huge factor toward optimal progress. Secondly it is not just the intrinsic effect of technology that carries a positive or negative effect upon bio-physical impact. It is also the socio-economic application of that technology. For example, water efficiency technologies are generally deemed to be benign, if not clearly positive. However if the water saved is allocated to greater population or production the technology is negative as it leads to greater embedded impact and risk than would otherwise be the case. Similarly solar energy technologies allow people to live modern lifestyles in remote off-grid areas. This local population increase then develops demand for services like roads, and thence elevated visitation and ultimately normal grid power into hitherto pristine areas. The Daintree in Northern Queensland provides a classically tragic example. I think it is fairly accurate to state that no technology can be impact negative when applied by a social attitude that is inherently unsustainable. There is no such thing as 'sustainable' or benign technology. There is only the 'sustainable' or benign use of technology. Technology cannot save us. We have to save ourselves. Once we know how to do that, and presently we really have no idea most significantly because we do not care enough about it to adequately consider the matter, we can appropriately use technology to assist.

Re: Vivienne's observation, it may be that those who aspire to reform various conceptual values simply go about it the wrong way. I am yet to see a concerted, broad scale attack on the growth paradigm stated in terms of a measured iteration of growth in the day-to-day negatives that are concomitant with growth - like a direct antithesis to the notionally positive but largely meaningless growth figures that blare incessantly from the prominent growth advocates. Critique, to the terribly small extent it does occur, tends to stray toward scalar and end-game scenarios that are both obscure and repellent to common consciousness. Even within more 'normal' advocacies, such as for nature conservation, activists exhort their campaigns in difficult terms of intrinsic values rather the extrinsic factors of value recognisable within DAILY human life which can most easily penetrate and resonate within average thinking. Re 'The Amygdala', it clearly controls the consciousness politicians as much as it does the masses. That is to be expected as both groups are human. The problem is not the effective dominance of the Amygdala within the various behavioral choices. It is the negative and alienated environment prevalent within and between the various groupings confabulated within the one enormous body politic. The 'masses' are both too massive, and too remote from their careless leaders to be functionally competent in their social synthesis and embrace of 'the truth' in any matter. Additionally, the dynamic architecture of these matters is generally too complex and too remote from peoples' daily lives to successfully grasp within social processing modes. The notion that people can successfully interact as rational individuals, and thereby successfully manage complex socio-political conditions is one that many thinking people irrationally believe. All available evidence suggests that, to be effective, society must be functionally autonomous at a scale that is sufficiently intimate, inclusive and interpersonally accountable to enable the full inclusion and genuine respect of the emotional realities operative within the ALL of the human consciousness affected by the matters being decided. Such engagement generates social interest, participation and, thereby, applicable knowledge. The vital but entirely enigmatic question is how to get to that scale of decision-making from where we now are. As enticing as it may seem as a way forward, rational engagement, and arguably the human evolution necessary to fully enable it, is a popular fantasy that offers no real opportunity. BTW, Garrett is a lawyer, ex-rock star, and born-again Christian. What reason or ethic does that portfolio demonstrate and where does anyone get the idea that he has been so suddenly slipstreamed into such high office for any other reason than the grandeur and prominence the gig offers him, as well as the public glamour and the willing compliance he provides to his employers?

I am in tears every time I have had to drive to Melb and back. I become so hostile towards the fools that think that a pipe of 87 ugly miles, devastating the beautiful run along that area, is going to solve Melb water crisis. My God Melb has many huge reservoirs and TANKS on businesses and homes ARE they only answer. Melb gets more rainfall than the country rivers! I now go out of my way through Flowerdale or the Black Spur so I don't cry and get so upset. The water from the snow is one way of the rivers getting water but the country has had really poor snow seasons, so man-made snow was even used. How can stupid Brumby, Bracks and the others, possibly think that it was plenty of water - from where? I am so depressed about this matter that my life is in their hands. I made the green change but there is nothing in the country to enjoy. The city-slickers with their high rise buildings have spoilt it all. Now farmers aren't even allowed to cut up fallen trees on their own property. The paperwork, the wages. People are going to die because of all of this. It must be stopped and not after the horse has bolted (Bracks) & (Kennett) (Hawke) - before. Have men no vision. It is so short-sighted. I saw it in the 70's when this matter started and men did NOTHING.

If people are made ill by recycled water, will they be able to sue the Queensland Government? I think that is the acid test. If the QL government will not guarantee them compensation, then that means that the QL government doesn't really believe this is safe. I think that Premier Bly has made a shocking decision to manipulate water storage rather than simply stop building more houses and inviting more people to Queensland. Without the government advertisements for Queensland, most people would never think of coming. And we might still have our pleasant town and bushland. The jobs won't last and they aren't worth much anyway. The only people making money out of this are the builders, and that won't last.

Coals can also be converted into liquid fuels like gasoline or diesel by several different processes. In the direct liquefaction processes, the coal is either hydrogenated or carbonized. Alternatively, coal can be converted into a gas first, and then into a liquid, by using the Fischer-Tropsch process.

It seems the Greens have finally buckled under and spoken out on the population issue. Why they failed to do so a long time ago is a mystery to me as the majority of them, being concerned about the environment, poverty and the like, could not have failed to see the connection between population (and rampant consumption) and those matters of concern to them. It now only remains for them to rewrite their population policy to reflect this swing to common sense and in so doing ensure that they incorporate a view on the need to stabilize population growth in Australia itself and not just the third world. Still regardless of what further steps the Greens do take to formalize their policies on population they are far and away a better bet than the rest of the mob that occupy seats in the parliament. As far as the 41 senators who voted against the the motion are concerned I can only conclude that:- a) they are intellectually impaired or live their lives in some sort of cocoon or b) they owe the allegiances to the pro-growth business interests and not the public who they are supposed to represent or c) their jobs are at stake and they are afraid to go against their party lines or d) some combination of the above. In the end of course it is the fault of the voters who continue to allow Australia's two biggest political parties to take us along the path we are traveling.

The day Peter Beattie arrogantly declared Qld as the SMART State, I doubt that there has been one smart decision come from this state government. Anna Bligh is a clone of Mr. Beattie and is taking the state into a banana republic. Prime farming land is being taken over for coal mining. This land will never produce food again and at a time when we are told of a world food shortage. Recylced effluent and industrial waste to go into our drinking water and flouride a known poison. Lets hope our children and their children are strong enough to overcome the strong possibility of very bad health.

I suppose you have been overseas studying their recycle Systems?, I doubt it judging by your stupid comment. There's no question in my mind who's attention seeking here!

Hi Catherine,

Sensational Post! Unfortunately, Mr Rudd and his predecessors are all too familiar with the psychology behind 'the amygdala', that part of the human brain that still dominates the masses behavior, primarily from the perspectives of 'fear and greed'. I know, he said those words recently in relation to the so called 'financial crisis', but I wrote the original article entitled 'Fear and Greed', for Margo Kingston's Web Diary, back in 2002. If you'd like me to post a copy to 'Can Do Better', let me know.

Anyhow, we can only hope that one day the masses will reach the point where they can engage their frontal cortex in order to 'think' with a degree of consciousness, about these issues. Humankind has unfortunately, only managed this level of awareness three (3) times in its entire history. None of those occasions were driven by people who desired the 'scientific management' of the people. Those occasions were educed by philosophers!

Alas, I fear my time may well end before I see the Renaissance!

Kindest Regards

Andrew

Letter to Brishen Hoff: Brishen, that was the best hatchet job on Suzuki, the best analysis of the man, his organization, and his lifestyle that I have yet seen. A holistic critique. Not many people are prepared to take iconoclastic approaches, the kind we need to take toward these dangerous figures, these Pied Pipers, these modern Pharisees who lead the innocents astray with their smooth charm and stage presence, and academic civility. Why are we seduced by that rather than looking at the damage that they are doing? Suzuki, Rees et al are like flagmen with the highways department, sending drivers off down the wrong road to no where. They may be engaging, even driven by the right motives initially. But I would rather have no directions at all and use my own counsel than have these so called “environmentalists” direct traffic. I posted your piece in Australia but I put another bigger title on top of the title you had. I hope it is OK. I called it , are you ready, “Dr. David Suzuki is Not Sustainable” Tim PS I know, I know. There are people who are going to say. Lets keep on the good side of the icons. Lets prostrate ourselves before them like other supplicants. With enough bootlicking, we might gain some influence. Who then is going to tell the truth to power? Who is going to tell the truth to the people? Don’t the people hear enough hero-worship? The ordinary working class people of Quadra Island, the truckers, the tradesmen, the store clerks, the loggers, the fisherman, hate Suzuki’s guts. It is only the ruling clique, the Sierra-NDP-Greens, the artsy-fartsy people with college degrees who rely on the CBC to form their opinions and then genuflect before Him. They are the people who control the local media and the local community hall. Modifying or softening my pitch to suit them is not to my taste. The working class people are going to be the first to suffer the rebound effect of the boom economy that is soon to go bust. And in Suzuki they spot a hypocrite. One who preaches limits, but doesn’t live within them. To the rest: I think it is imperative for someone of Suzuki’s stature to “walk the talk”. I met Ralph Nader as a university student and I remember how impressed students were by his asceticism. As one TVO commentator so crudely put it, Suzuki is a preacher who preaches chastity while discreetly ducking into the whore house. Coast guard sailors and fishermen here are aware that he flies to the Queen Charlotte Islands to meet his native friends on hunting and fishing parties to over-fish and over-hunt, that is fish and hunt beyond the white man’s limits as a guest of the natives. This after appearing on television telling the rest of us to live within our limits. My limit includes having to buy a fishing licence. As Brishen points out, what could be more absurd that having to purchase a fishing licence, but not be required to have a licence to breed an excessive amount of children? True, Suzuki can’t undue his past. But why not go on television and apologize for it? The federal government apologized for the internment of Japanese Canadians during the war. Why can’t Suzuki get up and say: “ I am sorry that I was unaware of the damage that so many people would do to the atmosphere and the environment . I regret my irresponsibility, but not my children, whom of course I love etc etc.” Tim Quadra Island, BC Suzuki’s lair

Unbelievable that they would vote against this! Well not really - but all Bob was calling for is some recognition that this issue needs to be addressed, and this vote proves beyond reasonable doubt that the mainstream pollies just don't want to know. Disgusting that they should abdicate their duty like this, This is an outright refusal to address in any way, the long term wellbeing of our country. Shame!

Good analogy! And the short term "good" effects are illusory anyway! The people who must have some inkling of the ramifications just put their collective heads in the sand. You'd think it would be hard maintaining that degree of denial!

Thank Dog (I'm a religious dyslexic!) for Bob Brown, the country's (and possibly the world's) only politician with the courage, intelligence and foresight to face the anachronism of exponential growth (beyond a point). I have always admired Dr Brown's skills and moral fortitude, but this now puts him a much greater peg above the rest. As someone who has written extensively on the limits to growth and human health (again, beyond a point) in academic journals going back to 1974 I would be delighted to provide Dr Brown with any information in this area he requires. However as I know he is bombarded with lobby groups I would not wish to push this on him. Please keep up the good work Dr Brown - without you we are all in deep doggy doo doo (no dyslexia intended this time).

Like smoking, only the "good" side is evident at the time, and the "bad" effects too far off to worry about! This is the same as immigration and environmental threats. The "good" side is commercial as more people prop up the demand for goods and services. The long term implications are too "far off" and abstract for our politicians to ponder! They will be well and truly superannuated off by the time our food shortages hit us, and climate change makes survival more difficult and the cost of compensating for it too expensive! It is easier to understand the financial figures of economic growth! Long term planning and livability is not on their agenda - only short-term gains and a "happy" electorate that will return them in the next election!

Thanks Sheila, a pretty good explaination, yes, I do look at things in a rather concrete way, I am very well versed all aspects of peak oil, LTG, climate change etc so look at these things in a very serious way. The website I was refferring to was surfinglife as depicted in the caption which (from my view) has no bearing on LTG and its use here still bothers me, however I understand your point of view as you have explained.

1. Chickens coming home to roost - the truth will find you 2. Symbolised by vultures circling - signifying depletion of necessities for life 3. Picture of Hawaiian village; portrays the simple lifestyle which also happens to be what most people desire. Might come as a bit of a surprise to people who have been sold the pap that the way we live now - in debt and overworked - is actually fun. If we conserve, that is the sort of lifestyle we might aim for although it would vary in detail from place to place, but a reasonable lifestyle is one where population and habits are suited to local resources. Not too much work. Overwork is the cause of our predicament and unnecessary if we don't have a huge manufacturing and export economy. Of course, we would have to redistribute the land. You would have problems with this opinion if you have swallowed the myth that everyone died aged 30 in terrible circumstances before the industrial revolution, and you would fear, 'the simpler way' as Ted Trainer calls it. As to the impression people might get from the presentation on this website; there are courses for horses. Some people might immediately get the significance. Also, the message that the CSIRO is conveying is well-known to the kinds of people who look at this site; therefore it is more interesting for them to have it presented slightly differently. This press release will be re-published in a variety of forms and, in the mainstream press, it will either be truncated or swamped with contrary nonsense about how we must have growth. The ultimate message from the presenter of this article - myself - is, "Conservation is desirable and can be very pleasant; growth is unpleasant and undesirable." More surfing; less subjugation. As for the CSIRO article author... it was a CSIRO press release; made available to the public to use in articles. In no way did I misrepresent the CSIRO. People with concrete ways of seeing the world are challenged by metaphor and humour, therefore do not see its significance. Sometimes they believe it is insulting. However other people will be attracted by the quirky presentation and will read the article, when they might just have yawned at the idea of yet another review of the Club of Rome stuff. And, yes, it is an important article, which is why I put it up there. Simmons has also published an important validation of the Club or Rome, if you google it. I am not sure of what website you are referring to. Are you saying that a link doesn't work? One site links to the original Hawaiian artwork; the other is the site given by the CSIRO in its press release. Sheila Newman, population sociologist

I submitted this one to roeoz, glad to see it here, however I dont get the significance of the pictutre nor the website referred to. It appears to have nothing whatsoever to do with the Club of Rome, Limits to Growth or the CSIRO. I can only imagine it was an error. This information contained is of the highest importance and to dilute the message with this mixed meaning or have denialists or the uninitated see the picture and pass off the article as mere internet rubbish does damage to the intent of the article. I sincereley hope it changes before the CSIRO article author sees their work being used in this way.

It would appear this study is based on a false premise. The simple fact of the matter is that all operations of civilization entail using up irreplaceable natural material resources (INMR) (natural capital) as well as replenishable natural material resources (RNMR)(natural income). There is nothing we can do to replace the components of the limited INMR (like oil). Using INMR is an unsustainable process. Society is going to have to live on RNMR alone in due course. Technology can only improve how the remaining INMR is used. The justification for this assertion is contained in my thesis 'What went wrong? The misdirection of civilization.' It is being published shortly.

Leon's essay is simply breathtaking in scope and comprehension. It is the most important post I have seen yet. It of course addresses my chief obsession, and the project of my intended book, the betrayal by the environmental NGOs of their mandate to deal with the roots causes of environmental degradation in Canada, and obviously, the United States. Leon shows how changing demographics work there way into the cold calculations of Sierra Club strategy. When Al Gore in his famous documentary remarked that some people don't understand because they are paid NOT to understand, well, Carl Pope and company are paid by donations and promised cooperation or threatened non-cooperation NOT to understand what mass immigration is doing to America. The very same calculations were made by the labour movement. Either stand with the interests of the American workers whose dues they collect, the bird in their hand, or drop them, or chase after the two Hispanic birds flying over the border. What I like most about his essay is his reminder that we are all tribalists, and that so called "ethnics", are if anything, more even more tribalistic than the white nationalists who get most of the bad press that white liberals fret about. Australian Frank Salter, and Harvard's Robert Putnam have insights into that. Lower population bases allow tribes a buffer of space to keep healthier distances between them. Less friction, less war. Then we can have that "Diversity of Sovereign Nations" that Garrett Hardin talked about. But whether we live in separate nations, or within nations, we have to find a way of getting along. Of spreading and sharing a conservation ethic. Hispanics and other ethnics may come and are coming to accept limits to growth, as we hope we are. But will it happen fast enough to keep up with the pace of this growth? Tim Murray

I think the price of oil is a reflection of purchasing power. It reflects what the market can pay, and that must be some kind of reflection on the true value of goods, services and property. I don't think any of these things have gone as low as they will eventually. Inflation is a reflection of competition for a thing. Obviously competition has diminished. That may be because a lot of people and whole peoples can no longer purchase much oil at all. If this logic is sustained in trends, then eventually oil may be very very cheap, although very very rare, and most people will not have access to it. Maybe Andrew will contradict me. He has a great theory which was borne out in the commodities boom after the depression in the manufacturing countries, followed by the depression in commodities producers as well. I imagine that would play a part. Sheila Newman, population sociologist

So does the drop from around US$140 a barrel to around US$60 a barrel represent the price of oil after the speculators backed off because of the financial crisis? Too simplistic, I'm sure, but what is going on? It would be very nice to know your thinking on this.

We need to tread with care when we form opinions on the likes of recycled and of fluoridated water. Everything in life carries with it an element of risk. We need to balance the risks of doing one thing against doing nothing or pursuing an alternative course of action. Queensland will not be pioneers if it adopts either recycling or fluoride treatment of its water as both have proved successful in plenty of other cases around the world. Dental health has improved substantially where fluoride treatment has been introduced and as far as I am aware (and I am not an expert on this) there have been little or no serious ill effects recorded as a result of its introduction. Insofar as recycled water is concerned; what are the options? More dams? Desalination? Pipelines to the north? All of these alternatives will damage the environment and cause some social disruptions and ultimately contribute to a decline in well being for many species including humans as the planet becomes less and less able to sustain the life support systems we currently enjoy. Of course, if Queensland had opted to follow a sustainable path from the outset and taken steps to stabilize rather than expand its population as well to conserve its natural resources the water shortages would not have occurred.

I think this is a vexed question in many ways, Tim, and we need to approach it very carefully.

Climate change refugees

I think the solution to this problem, if one is to be found, must lie somewhere between the extremes of complete acceptance of all climate change refugees on the one hand and total refusal to accept any on the other.

I believe that we should be focusing now on the prevention of economic migration and natural population growth both here and in the Third World so that when we have to confront the climate change refugee question, we may just have a little more space in which to place any climate change refugees should we then decide to do so.

If this awful day comes, then I believe that we should then ask ourselves the hard question as to whether we possibly can take any refugees without completely destroying our own environment. We can't know one way or the other what the answer to this question will be in advance and should not definitively pre-empt one way or the other what our decision as a society should be at that point.

Defence

Defence is also problematic. The Canadian Armed Forces does have a right to defend its own borders from both invaders and illegal immigrants. However it also engaged in an illegitimate war in Afghanistan, which is based on the fraudulent pretext that the principle perpetrators of the 9/11 terrorist atrocity came from within the Afghanistan. Whilst until recently I accepted this lie and, hence, the legitimacy of the current Afghan War, I have since become familiar with the case of the and no longer do.

Thus the Afghan war is only yet another of many unjust wars conducted since at least the end of the Second World War and the Canadian Armed forces, and, for that matter, the Australian Defence Forces, should be playing no further part in it.

You don't seem to have been following the news lately, Rod.

The claim that everone overesas is using industrially recycled water is a lie peddled by the Queensland Government and the Toowoomba City coouncil at the time they tried and failed to win the supprt of Toowomba residents for water recycling in a .

From of 30 Oct 08:

"PETER Collignon is a worried man. 'Nobody in the world has done what southeast Queensland is about to do,' says the eminent microbiologist and Australian National University professor of clinical medicine. 'What is about to happen is the reversal of 150 years of public health policy in Australia because sewage will be put into the drinking water of more than two million people. Everywhere else in the world, the emphasis is on keeping sewage out of drinking water. We should be concerned about what Queensland is doing, especially as it is being looked at by the rest of the country as a solution to water supply problems.'

"In February, southeast Queenslanders will become the first Australians to drink their own waste when 60 megalitres of recycled sewage a day is pumped into Wivenhoe Dam, Brisbane's main water source.

"...

"Collignon insists that contrary to claims by the Queensland Government, the project is unprecedented. 'Nowhere in the world is the proportion of drinking water that is recycled sewage anything like 10 or 25 per cent. There's never been a population of this size that has been subjected to this.'"

"Collignon rejects government claims that a seven-stage treatment process will ensure the water is safe. He raises three major health concerns."

"Collignon says the technology is not available to detect minute quantities of viruses, some potentially fatal, which may enter the water supply. 'The quantity of virus must effectively be reduced 10 billion-fold to make it safe. If you have a 1 per cent leakage through a tear in the reverse osmosis membranes, then the water is not safe.'

"The second area of concern raised by Collignon is the delay of one or more days before the results of tests for E.coli and other dangerous bacteria can become available.

"'By that time, you will have substantial quantities of contaminated water in the dam and although you can do things to reduce the damage, there is potential for infections to get through. There will be no real time testing being done to get results immediately.'

"Third, Collignon says it is inevitable some antibiotics and other natural and man-made chemicals will not be filtered out. 'It is of concern if various estrogens and hormones are being recycled, and it is not good if antibiotics and other drugs are being recycled.'

From of 1 Nov 08:

"The process of sewage and waste recycling being used in southeast Queensland is not used anywhere else in the world and, while the Government strongly defends the integrity of the process, there are doubters.

"This week, two academics from the Australian National University, Patrick Troy and Peter Collignon, cast doubt on whether the recycled water scheme was safe.

"Professor Collignon, one of Australia's leading infectious disease experts, argued that the technology did not exist to prevent recycled sewage from contaminating the water supply.

"Professor Troy, whose expertise is in planning, said the safety of recycled water had not been proved in any long-term epidemiological studies. 'It will not be possible to remove all biologically active waste molecules from the system,' he said. 'The probability is that something like 8 per cent of these impurities will get through, and that is assuming the system is working properly.'"

From of 4 Nov 08:

"THE bureaucrat charged with safeguarding the health of Queenslanders was not called on to approve the adding of recycled sewage to the drinking water of the state's southeast.

"The Bligh Government left Queensland Chief Health Officer Jeannette Young out of the approval loop on the Western Corridor Reycled Water Project.

"Instead, the scheme was given a health clearance by the Office of the Water Supply Regulator, an arm of the state Department of Natural Resources and Water.

"The revelation came as Dr Young's department admitted it did not know how much hospital waste would be recycled.

...

"(Queensland Health population health senior director) Dr Selvey said the quantity of hospital waste that was dumped into the sewage system -- and would therefore be recycled as drinking water -- was not known

...

"Australian National University microbiology head Peter Collignon said hospital wastes should not be included in recycled water.

"Hospitals have a high concentration of toxins and bacteria so there is a bigger potential for contamination," said Professor Collignon, also Canberra Hospital's infectious diseases director

.

...

He said recycled water in rivers in Europe had resulted in elevated levels of hormones, which had changed the sex of fish.

"We don't know what the effects on people are but the changes in fish suggest it is not a good idea."

Gosh! I hope none of these experts ever travel overseas to such places as Britain, France, Germany, some of the USA and Asia who've been recycling water for years.
The term attention seeking nobodies comes to mind.

This method of stimulating the economy has negative feedbacks. It will eventually feed back into house prices raising them above price the lower third of our working people can pay. The people with high incomes will be able to negatively gear their interest on these higher priced houses thus enabling them to take capital gains (or an income stream in retirement) at the ordinary tax payer's exprense. Stimulating the economy in these depressed times is required. It should be done by increasing the stock of social housing; by insuring that all working people have access to loans to buy modest houses; and by ensuring that we have governments (both Federal, State, and Local) prepared to do their job - and govern for the people.

How times change. In the fifties and sixties, it was considered a litmus test of progessive left wing and liberal thinking to be in favour of the flouridation of water supplies. Only reactionary philistine conservatives could oppose such a thing. My parents were the odd men out, so to speak. Their thought was, why not allow us to drink pure water, and those who believed that flouridation was so demonstrably wonderful, the kind of people who later told us that tholidamide and nuclear power was safe, could simply put flouride tablets in THEIR drinking water instead of forcing it down everyone else's throats. Now I am amazed and delighted to see that some people on the left are beginning to question such state mandated things as flouridation of water supplies, flu vaccinations, and dispensation of ritalin to children to children for the crime of acting like children (why not prescribe amphetamines to school teachers to make them keep up to their pupils?). Focus on ensuring clean water by suppressing population growth. That is my solution. Tim

Sheila, you have hit the nail on the head. I believe that what it is going to take for our world to be transformed is for the children ALL to rise up as an army and storm parliament, stand in front of bulldozers etc. If they don't there is no hope for the planet. The adults of the world are too mortgaged out, dumbed down with their recreational drugs and mind-numbing TV sitcoms and too darn unhealthy and overweight to getup and do something. If the children take the lead I believe the adults will follow. Why? Because adults love their children and politicians and decision-makers and bulldozer drivers are all parents with kids. And also because kids are still in touch with their hearts and see with relatively pure eyes and this helps to awaken the half-dead adults. Let's support the kids to move forward proactively and let this be the first of many successful manoeuvres to save our world. Let the children be the heroes and let's sing their praises to media everywhere. Menkit Sign the most important petition ever created to help kangaroos here:

Premier John Brumby has broken an election commitment by sending in bulldozers and chainsaws again into Brown Mountain in the “Valley of the Giants” forest, East Gippsland. In just under 170 years we have cleared over 70% of Victoria. Only 16% is protected and thirty percent of Victoria's animals are either extinct or threatened with extinction. Despite this poor record, eco- destruction continues. National Park protection of old growth forests was promised by Premier Brumby last election. Scientists at ANU now estimate that Australia's unlogged, natural eucalypt forests hold an average of 640 tonnes of carbon per hectare. For old growth forests, this figure climbs to over 1000 tonnes. It also means that 20% of the standing carbon value is immediately released into the atmosphere. They are also the home to a myriad of plant and animal life. Forests are giant carbon pumps, drawing carbon from the air and pumping it into the soil. Japan's forests are protected but we send ours there instead! Our ecosystem needs to be an urgent priority and Premier Brumby needs to stop the logging of all native forests and start showing some integrity as our Premier.

The children have identified their feelings mainly as "sad" and "angry" . What are these feelings going to turn into if nothing is done to address their justified concerns? What if all the kangaroos die and the children are left with a shopping complex in their place? Will they take their own children to the shopping complex and have a fleeting thought about the kangaroos decades before? Will they become depressed as they realise that no-one takes any notice of them and the shopping complex agenda will continue no matter what they say and no matter what or who is in the way?

Interesting article. I was up in Toowoomba when they were having the debate about this. In the Toowoomba situation it did seem like the council had explored a range of different options and found that recycled water was the best one for the situation. Another point that people have made is that people are already drinking recycled sewerage because towns on the mid-Brisbane river are already putting their sewerage into the river that is then being treated at Mt Crosby. However, it is a shaky argument that because something is already happening it should therefore continue to happen and happen on a larger scale. I think the point made about hospital waste is quite valid. Overall I'm a much bigger fan of water self-sufficiency, where people do not have to be dependent on massive government systems to get their basic needs e.g. rainwater tanks, local stormwater collection and reuse (for non-drinking purposes).

I will just briefly state here my own view that I believe that even when neither of the alternatives on offer are good, making a choice is, nevertheless, usually still very important. Clearly if McCain and Palin had won, it would most likely have been taken as a mandate for the most reckless environmental vandalism and new military adventurism. Given that McCain is barely less pro-immigration than Obama, I think it would have been safe to conclude that, on the whole, the consequences of a MaCain/Palin victory would have been at least substantially worse for the environment of both the U.S. and the world. At least the U.S. public have decisively repudiated the appalling outrages and excesses of the Bush regime and have created an opening that grass-roots activists may be able to use in order to make the U.S. truly democratic. That is the only way they can ever hope to ever be able to stop immigration and fix up their environment. Also, let's not forget that even Nixon, for all his grotesque and unforgivable crimes against humanity, particularly in Indo-China, did turn his back on some of his corporate sponsors to the benefit of the US public interest, once elected. Let's watch Obama very closely and very critically, but also, let's not completely write him off either.

Hmm. Sounds like the Victorian governments' plan to take over farmland with Food Bowl Unlimited. People should be aware that these plans for desalination, overpopulation, building big toll-ways, and for more big cities, are planned on an Australia-wide basis. So whatever happens in one state will soon happen in another, or some comparable project will. People should read: , among others. Sheila Newman, population sociologist

James, I wouldn't dispute that online debates with fools doubt have some value, the only question is do they yield enough value for the energy we expend on extracting it? The very same question that any gold miner would ask. I am not the tenacious internet warrior you are, by any means, but two of my colleagues are of your callibre. Persistent, incisive, caustic. I have seen them battle PC morons and moderators for days on end on several threads until the topic is closed. I have copied the debates and highlighted some passages. Then round two comes up three weeks later wth another permutation and some of the same cast of fools reappear unreconstructed. Eventually, some months down the road, my collegues are banished from the forum. Time spent on these marathons was time not spent on blog articles and essays, or networking. I am not convinced these on line debates enjoy much readership. The one valuable online debate we did have was the one with Dr. Bill Rees. That was a debate that, while it ended unsatisfactorily, provided much clarification of his position on immigration, and carrying capacity and biodiversity. Summarizing these experiences is a very good idea. There is another species of debate. Rigourous debate WITHIN the Malthusian ranks. That as we know, can be testy enough, but at least it is within the parameters of consensus and objective reality. Every participating knows that we are in overshoot. We don't have waste hours arguing with people that don't accept that 2 plus 2 equals 4. The 3 day debate just concluded in our group about whether Hunter Gatherer societies enjoyed a better EROEI compared to early civilizations was a masterpiece. I will be saved and archived on Biodiversity for all who visit the website to refer to. THOSE are the debates that certainly are worthwhile. And debates with the Andrew Bartletts (and Bill Rees) of this world are mandatory for what they reveal. No argument there. Perhaps then, I could excuse you forays into these skirmishes as dress rehearsals or sparring matches to hone your debating skills for the moment when you will face someone on camera at a Brisbane city election or something of that nature. The sophistries you hear on this threads come up over and over again, don't they? I do wish I had your stamina and I am glad that there is someone in the movement to go in there and give them hell. PS I subscribe to Michael Shermer's Skeptic Magasine. I have read his books and find him entertaining. However, he does have his blind spots. I am a skeptic by nature. But am skeptical about skepticism as well. (eg. If placebo medicine works, who cares why?) Do you know Shermer is a cornucopean too? He advocates what he calls a "Type 1 Civilization with a completely global economy with free markets where everyone can trade with everyone else, based on wireless Internet access." There is not a black cloud on his horizon. Everyone, all 15 billion of us, will always be on the grid to keep our personal computers running, so that we can keep in touch with each other and conduct those commercial transactions we need to make for an ever-flowing amount of goods and services. Shermer declares that he is an optimist. (Toward a Type 1Civilization July 22, 2008 Skeptics Society) Tim

Tim, whilst we all have to prioritise, and all of us don't have time to argue to the very end with pig-headed corunucopians, it is my experience that it can pay off, if you remain focused and don't fall for the usual debating tricks.

If you don't fall into traps you can find that debates are usually quickly concluded. The over your article has of 16 Sep 08 concluded (for the time being at least) over three weeks ago after only 44 posts with being the last. My chief protagonist clearly judged that her debaters' tricks and obfuscation were unlikely to fool many others if she persisted.

Also, a large number of growthist and pro-free-market trolls, who have, in the past, caused me immense trouble, now stay well away from any forums in which I participate.

I think such debates can quickly show many undecided people where the truth is most likely to lie in these controversies. About two months ago I listened to a radio debate between 'sceptic' Michael Shermer and Richard Gage of Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth () in order to come to a decision about who was most likely telling the truth in regard to claims that the Bush administration itself orchestrated the terrorist attacks of 11 September 2001.

After I had finished listening to that debate I had completely lost what remaining respect I had for Shermer and had concluded that Richard Gage was most likely telling the truth. Since then I started my own about 9/11 partly in order to further sort out the issue in my own head. There are currently 243 posts of which I have contributed 79. I have been savagely attacked on that forum, but the complete lack of any convincing argument from those who insist upon the veracity of the official U.S. Government explanation of 9/11 has further confirmed in my mind the truth of the case of the . So, it has been useful to me and it can be useful to others, particularly if I realise my plan to write a summary of that discussion.

I have been planning for some time to write summaries of the many debates I have been involved in with links back to the actual forums.

Copyright notice: Reproduction of this material is encouraged as long as the source is acknowledged.

Victoria is the most cleared state in Australia, with only 16% protected. Bureau of Meteorology records show that rainfall has decreased along the east coast of Australia over the last 50 years. According to the Australian Conservation Foundation, since 2006 VicForests has logged hundreds of hectares of precious old-growth forests contrary to the government’s commitment. Old growth forest areas being logged presently in East Gippsland (Brown Mountain) are part of a State Forest area that was earmarked as a National Park, an election "promise" made by Brumby. Victoria could be made resistant to mega-fires by protecting old-growth forests, rainforests and water catchments from woodchipping and moving logging into existing plantations. Joining the dots surely would allow us to draw the conclusion that continual land clearing and logging industries, no matter how "sustainable", are contributing to our dry and vulnerable state. Native forests are a precious resource, a buffer against climate change and bushfires, and should be protected and extended, not logged!

A well-written column about Australia's housing affordability crisis and the stupid policies which caused it: Built for shelter, not prosperity I WAS a tad grumpy after my superannuation statement showed I had kept my head above water only because I was standing on tippy-toes atop a small mountain of my own contributions. So, I wasn't really in the right frame of mind to learn that my taxes - including the contribution taxes that penalise me for providing for my own old age - were being used to subsidise first-home buyers indulge their flights of fancy. "We'll be able to buy the house we really wanted," said one beaming gent, who appeared in this paper to declare the $14,000 first homeowners grant was sufficient incentive to sign on the dotted line for a house. Good luck to him, but I know plenty of others 30 and 40 years his senior who are still waiting for the house they really want. They quite possibly will die waiting for it. I understand the need to prime the economic pump but is $1.5 billion in grants for first-home buyers - a subsidised ticket to indebtedness - the most efficient and sensible way to do it? The grants are an exercise in market gimmickry - sort of like "buy now, no repayments until 2010" - rather than an instrument to providing affordable housing. Grants were popular but dumb policy under John Howard and none the smarter coming from Kevin Rudd. Circumstances do not necessarily make good policy out of bad. Despite the breezy optimism of Housing Minister Jenny Macklin, I think all the new grants will do is push up prices and do nothing to make housing more affordable. Smarter people than me agree. RP Data's Michael McNamara noted this week that when the $7000 first home owners grant was introduced in 2000, median prices for houses in Australian capital cities rose by an average $32,000 in the following 12 months. It was an exercise in futility, he concluded. Even ANZ economist Saul Eastlake has conceded the grants might simply top up house prices. When the average mortgage is about $300,000, anyone who thinks $14,000 to $21,000 will make a huge long-term difference in an inflated market should maybe do their sums again. It might help secure them a mortgage but it won't put them all that much closer to ownership. In fact, for many it will be an inducement to enter into mortgage commitments they can no more afford today than they could on Tuesday morning before Prime Minister Rudd threw open the Commonwealth vaults and began ladling out the dough. By targeting middle-class recipients and without means-testing, the Government has plundered the collective surplus to benefit a comparative few. It is a strangely sectional way to build unity in the face of a national emergency. It is a shamelessly political response given that burgeoning debt was one of the warning signals of an economic day of reckoning. And it is a peculiarly Australian indulgence in middle-class welfare but, taken to its ludicrous extreme, it is the sort of dippy social engineering that led to the sub-prime crisis in the United States in the first place. If there was a bright side to the financial meltdown in Australia it was that it gave us the opportunity to break the vicious cycle of ridiculously inflated house prices and again make ownership practical. That might not have been an overly attractive prospect for those whose fortunes and dinner party conversations were tied to rising real estate prices but there was at least a whiff of reality on the breeze. We may have squandered that opportunity by launching another real estate frenzy. The purpose of housing, surely, is to provide shelter for people, not to become a commodity; the purpose of government investment should be to put people into accommodation not into mortgages. But, instead of people rejoicing in the mere fact of home ownership or affordable rental accommodation, spirits soar or crash on the basis of projected market prices. How extraordinary that we celebrate the rising costs of shelter, one of the most basic of human needs. Would we be so delighted if food and clothing were similarly placed beyond the reach of so many citizens? What happened to the affordability debate that was so loud during the last federal election campaign? But if the subsidies are part of a strategy to fend off recession, why single out the housing industry, notorious for boom and bust? The motor industry is warning of 7000 job losses in the downturn, so maybe we could make an equally compelling case to subsidise car buyers. If we're suddenly feeling sorry for pensioners and poor people, why not hand over grants to repaint their houses or put in new kitchens? Presumably that would equally benefit the building industry (but leave real estate agents and banks out in the cold). More to the point, why not invest that $1.5 billion subsidy fund in public housing or use it to improve infrastructure in developmental badlands? In the US, Barack Obama has been climbing up the presidential opinion polls with a crusade to break his country's addiction to credit. Here we prefer to feed the addiction with public money.

Reading yet more of the Government's destruction of our forests, I am thinking that only if people from Melbourne and Sydney travel in their thousands to major forestry expansion locations and stand in front of the bulldozers in ranks of hundreds, can this third-world processing of Australian resources and ammenities be stopped. The few forestry workers who would lose their jobs we could afford to put on pensions or redeploy in tourism. The democratic process is just not working on behalf of our forests. Commercial considerations which the general public are simply unable to fathom prevail against decency, ecological science, and natural engineering (such as services rendered to the atmosphere and water table through transpiration). The governments involved don't seem to feel shame. Perhaps their friendships with big business and its corporate spokesthing, the mainstream press, no matter how hollow that financial basis, makes them feel invulnerable. Any politicians who are ashamed and prepared to stand up and be counted, please get in contact with candobetter. Sheila Newman, population sociologist

We are becoming more like Europe with their high rise apartments full of foreign workers and immigrants. They provide cheap labour. Prosperity will be for the already wealthy, but not for the general public. Children will be brought up in apartments with no room to play outside, and no privacy or pets. This globalisation is part of economic growth, our government's main aim! They have forgotten about preserving our wonderful Australian life-styles, our housing crisis, our vulnerability to climate change and drought, and the fact that we only have limited fresh water supplies. Wall to wall people is good for businesses, but detrimental to the average person.

I am puzzled that so many people I know, who should know better, have a high regard for Michelle Grattan.

On this occasion, at least she has discussed the issue at hand, even if only to parrot the establishment position on immigraton.

However, quite often she fails even to do that. Her coverage of the debate of the legislation to fully privatise Telstra back in September 2005 was abysmal. As to even discuss the issue at hand would almost certainly have entailed making her audience aware of the stupidity of privatisation, she did not. Instead she focused exclusively on statements of the obvious about the wheeling and dealing to get the necessary majority of the Senators on side with the Government in order to ram through the legislation. I listened to fantastic debates in both houses of Parliament, but never a word of these would ever reported by Grattan on radio the next day. 'Democracy' and 'accountability' were two words which seem to be entirely missing from her vocabulary. The Government cut Senate discussion time and Senate committee hearing times in order to ram through its legislation with the minimum of scrutiny, without any critical comment coming from Grattan, that I can recall.

At one stage during the 2004 election campaign Grattan did a very good impression of a mindless bimbo. Both Labor and the Coalition were attempting to outbid each other in offering tax cuts. To this her response was words to the effect of, "Each side want to give me so much money! I just don't know who to vote for!"

Evidently she expected us to believe that politicians were intending to generously shower us with gifts that were theirs to give and not taken from our pockets in the first place. Of course, it would never have occurred to her to remind her audience that tax cuts necessarily mean that less money will be available for Government programs, particularly for the urgently needed repair of our damaged environment. Of course, this is the impression that run-of-the-mill hack political journalists routinely also try to give, but I would have thought we were entitled to better from one supposedly so much more sophisticated and experienced.

The sooner the ABC dispenses with Michelle Grattan's services the better for its audience.

in The Age in The Sydney Morning Herald THE Immigration Minister, Chris Evans, defended the Government's record high immigration intake yesterday, saying migrants often have better job outcomes than Australians, buy property and have a positive impact on the economy. This is the standard argument, that because migrants consumer resources locally it benefits the economy. The Productivity Commission's report showed just how marginal it is, see the key points for yourself at: # Some of the economy-wide consequences lower per capita income, such as capital dilution and a decline in the terms of trade. # The overall economic effect of migration appears to be positive but small, consistent with previous Australian and overseas studies. It should be clear that "lower per capita income, such as capital dilution and a decline in the terms of trade" are not a benefit to Australia! An economic downturn is defined by lower GDP, migration lowers per capita income and with commodity prices collapsing I don't think we need further pressure on our terms of trade. "What we know is most migrants have better job outcomes than Australians locally. We know that they consume, they buy property and they're a net positive to the budget," he told Channel Nine. "It's easy to call for a slowdown in migration [but] there are actually very strong positive economic impacts that come from migration, particularly if you are bringing in skills that allow you to build the economy. And a lot of the skills that are coming in at the moment are in the mining sector, which has allowed us to increase our exports." Immigration Ministter Chris Evans has a very blinkered view of accounting, migrants might contribute to property taxes, but they need health care, they need to send their kids to school, they drive on roads, they use public transport, they consume water, electricity etc. Do they pay directly or indirectly to the improvement or maintenance of essential infrastructure needed to support themselves? With the mining boom coming to a rapid stop because of collapsing commodity prices, I don't think we need more people to expand export capacity if foreigners no longer have such an appetite for natural resources. Both these Fairfax articles are pretty straight news reporting, basically quoting the immigration minister, but no attempt has been made to quote people with opposing views. The original report on the 26th Oct 2008: quoted both from the original federal opposition spokeswoman call and some response from the minister Chris Evans. So you would think follow up reports should continue to showing both sides.

Tim, Firstly, you are conflating the discussion about multiple-member-constituency proportional representation versus single-member-constituency representation with a discussion about first-past-the-post versus preferential voting. Can't you see at least one self-contradiction in what you have written? You effectively say that representative democracy is not good enough, then give an example of what has been achieved by representative democracy, albeit under the first-past-the-post electoral system, namely welfare state reforms in Britain and Canada. At least this proves that a lot that is worthwhile can be achieved by representative democracy, even when direct democracy, which we both agree is necessary to truly empower the people, is lacking. It's clear that first-past-the-post is a double-edged sword, and, moreover given that, in recent years it has allowed governments with programs of both dismantling the welfare state and increasing immigration in the UK and Canada to be elected against what was likely to have been the will of the majority, not to mention the election of the catastrophic Presidency of George W Bush, then it seems that the 'wrong' edge of that sword has been more prevalent overall. If I had lived in Canada in those years when, on the face of it, first-past-the-post had allowed the election of Governments which implemented those welfare state reforms, I would have still, nevertheless argued for preferential voting. If the short term price to have been paid had been that it would not have been possible for a Social Democratic government to gain the outright control necessary to pass welfare state legislation, then that would still have been a price worth paying in my view. Surely, one way or the other it should have been possible to convince the majority of Canadians that the welfare state legislation was in their best interests. Sooner or later, one way or another, that should have translated into parliamentary majority that would have legislated for the welfare state, and once that had occurred those gains would have been that much more secure as it would have been a lot harder for a Government wishing to dismantle the welfare state to subsequently gain an outright majority. If we allow ourselves to be lured into supporting such an obviously undemocratic voting system as first-past-the-post for short term expediency, then it makes it harder to object when that undemocratic system is turned around in order to allow those gains to be removed. It also will undermine our credibility where we object to other erosions of our democratic systems.

In light of Garnaut's climate change report, environmental stress, water shortages, housing crisis, the financial downturn and peak oil prices, our doors should be closed permanently to immigration. Artificially boosting our population through immigration may be good for the economy, to prop up the demand for goods and services, but is detrimental to any attempts towards climate change adjustments and to our general living standards. Immigration Minister is defending his position but our government should be able to make policies that are more than one dimensional. Policies first and foremost should be for the benefit of present citizens, not job prospects for foreign labourers. The only thing that our leaders seem to understand is economics! Knowing that it is human pressure on the ecosystem that is causing climate change and the loss of wilderness areas and biodiversity, we need to aim for zero population growth.

I wrote I believe it was, a 25 page report to the parliamentary federal caucus of the New Democratic Party in the early 1980s about Proportional Representation. It was written long before the days of personal computers. I am not prepared to sit down and re-type it and re-read it and review it. I am no longer interested in the pros and cons of electoral systems. But I made a thorough study of electoral systems in Europe and Canada and concluded that first past the post (FPP) yielded by far the best results for left of centre parties. I believe the title of the paper was "PR -Will we be caught in our trap?" When I presented my position to the provincial committee studying the issue, the committee sided with my position. Every positive piece of labor and environmental legislation in Western Canada from 1944 to 1980 was passed by Leftist governments who won less than 44% of the popular vote. Socialized medicine would never have been established at all in Canada if proportional representation had been in place in 1960. It was rammed through against fanatical opposition by a socialist government which held a majority of seats elected by a minority of voters. And two generations of Canadians would say Thank God for FPP if they reflected on that. I remember at one committee meeting saying to the group something I could never say publicly. I said the difference between those in the party who support proportional representation and those who, like me, supported first past the post, was that the former were fixated on a democratic process, whereas the latter was interested in a democratic result. A democratic result would be a more egalitarian society. The society was already stratified and in the control of the ruling corporate class. To oppose that class with a weak coalition government---always the result of proportional representation---would guarantee the perpetuation of capitalism. What was needed was a form of dictatorship, a modified dictatorship or rather a modified democracy. First past the post distorts the results to push the leading party over the top. The Italians at one time were going to do just that. Give bonus seats to the leading party to give it control because they were tired of weak rudderless coalitions. I think the biggest fan of proportional representation was Adolf Hitler. Without it, he never would have become Chancellor. It took a decade of useless feeble indecisive governments to set him up. It seems that our prescriptions for democratic models are based the bad case histories of our time. The Founding Fathers, like you James, seemed determined to design a system that would limit or checkmate the power of an elected office holder, given their unhappy experience with British. You enumerate the problems in NSW, and with the Nader/Gore debacle. But I, on the other hand, am conditioned by my life experience and that of my family in Western Canada since the war, when my parents said the socialists were cheated out of victory by a just introduced preferential ballot scam in 1952 that confused the electorate. Once in office, the right then abolished it. As I said, FPP served us well for 40 years. As it did the British between 1945-51. The NHS, the Town Planning Act (Green Belts) on and on. A minority coalition government with the Liberals holding the balance of power would never have allowed Atlee and Nye Bevan to do any of those things. You can't treat a complex subject like this with justice in a short comment. Today I don't advocate dictatorship, 1st past the post or PR. To re-iterate, I support direct democracy. But obviously, it must be supplemented by an elected assembly of some kind that implements its decisions or makes decisions that the people do not choose to put to direct vote. How then, would that assembly be elected? I have preferred the French run-off system. Is that very far the preferential system? But having said that, this is the 21st century and Edmund Burke has been dead for a very long time. Isn't time we learned to rely on ourselves? Do we still have to depend on political parties as the clearing house of ideas and the axis of power?

Of course Tim's comments about the limitations of representative democracy are correct and he is right to point out that representative democracy is unlikely ever to work anywhere nearly as well as direct democracy. Nevertheless, I believe I have demonstrated representative democracy has often been made completely undemocratic in countries such as Canada, the US and the UK, as a result of the totally stupid first-past-the post system. As just one of many examples, this made possible the election of the worst and most disastrous Presidencies in US history, because the US electors who voted for the unsuccessful candidate Ralph Nader in 2000 were not allowed to direct their preferences to Al Gore. Furthermore, the way the proportionally representative New South Wales upper house recently the legislation to privatise NSW's electricty assets is yet one of a large number of examples I could give which illustrate how Parliaments elected with proportional (and preferential) voting systems server the public far better than Parliaments which are elected on the basis of single member constituencies, particularly those which don't even have preferential voting. Tim has not addressed any of my arguments and has provided no reason why democratic grass roots activists should not loudly demand that this stupid first-past-the-post voting system be scrapped forthwith. Whilst superficially plausible arguments against direct democracy can be advance, this is not the case for preferntial voting. In any case, a political campaign agains first-past-the-post would be a good occasion to raise the issue of direct democracy.

OK. Let's say I am voting Green (or for any other party). Any party I vote for has 15 policies. I might, just might, agree with ten of them. Of the 15, only 7 or 8 might come up for debate and a vote in parliament. The Green candidate, for whom I voted, now my MP, you can bet your life will vote AGAINST my preference on 3 or 4 of those bills in the House even though I voted for her on my PREFERENTIAL ballot on election day. I may have agreed with her on the war on Iraq, on health care, on education, on gay rights, but damn it, NOT on refugee policy, and on that crucial bill, which the government just presented, she is leading charge. "My" representative, elected fairly. When you vote for a political party, you vote for a package deal. That is "representative" democracy. I am not really interested in the justice or the injustice of Elizabeth May or her party getting 6% of the vote and 0% of the seats. I am more interested in Tim Murray have one vote on election day and ZERO votes every other day until the next election four years hence. I am interested in DIRECT democracy, in a system of referenda, a system of citizen initiatives where people like myself could, if I could gather enough signatures, FORCE a vote on a question of MY wording on a ballot and IMPOSE the result on a representative body whose powers would be considerably trimmed back by populism. Elitists, usually from the left, would dare in the age of the internet to claim that the people are not competent to rule or make judgments for themselves. I say that if indeed the people are ignorant, then they have a RIGHT to learn from their own mistakes. But in the meantime, I prefer the mistakes of the incompetent many to the mistakes of the corrupt few. Direct democracy is democracy buffet style. Preferential voting or proportional representation is just a superior modification of an oligarchic arrangement. I shed no tears for May, Layton or any of the losers. I weep only for myself and others like me, who are denied the opportunity to cherry-pick those policies I support and vote down the ones I reject. I reject parties. I reject organizations. I don't follow people. They are only vehicles that get me places. Once there, I discard them. They have used me and betrayed me for decades. I support issues and ideas and form provisional coalitions. As a stop gap reform, I would favour one change, however. I would like to see one name appear at the bottom of every ballot: "None of the Above". That would give Canadians like me who do not want to incur the stigma of being apathetic for not voting, the option of going into the voting booth and voting for a name they have confidence in. Tim

(This comment was posted to ABC Radio National's National Interest in response to an with Dr David Burchill concerning NSW state politics.)

What a shallow analysis of NSW politics by Dr David Burchill that was!

I guess it should have been no great surprise to me to learn that he was a regular columnist for that shameless propaganda arm of the New World Order, namely Rupert Murdoch's Australian newspaper. (To get some idea of just how appallingly the Australian misreported the NSW electricity privatisation issue, read of 18 Sep 08.)

Burchill blames the NSW Labor Party administration and the Union movement for the trouble that the NSW government got into when it attempted to privatise electricity.

What about the NSW public, who were never informed by Costa and Iemma of their plans to privatise electricity in the 2007 elections, and who explicitly rejected privatisation in the 1999 elections and who, throughout all the many months of the recent conflict over privatisation remained 79%-86% opposed to privatisation in the face of media misinformation and taxpayer-funded pro-privatisation propaganda?

What an appalling outrage against democracy that was!

Thank goodness that the NSW Labor Party administration and the NSW union movement, for all of their faults, together with the Greens, Independents, and NSW state Liberals and Nationals, stood up to Iemma, Costa and the NSW corporate sector.

I urge the ABC to make use of proper commentators and analysts and to reduce its reliance upon those on Rupert Murdoch's payroll - David Burchill, Greg Sheridan, Paul Kelly and Phillip Adams to name only a few.

Postscript: The second and third paragraphs of the above comment was read out on the The National Interest program of Friday 24 Oct 08 - 27 Oct 08.

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I think Tim's article glosses over some very serious problems with the Canadian electoral system.

However correct he is about the Canadian Green Party's cowardice on the population and immigration question, I think it needs to be acknowledged that Elizabeth May's result in her own riding of was impressive. She achieved a vote of 12,620 or 32.24% of the vote compared to the 18,239 votes or 46.60% of the victorious Conservative Party candidate.

Across Canada, the Greens achieved a total vote of 6.80% -- a not altogether insignificant result -- yet achieved in Parliamament. Had Canadians not been saddled with the appallingly undemocratic first-past-the-post voting system, it is likely that the Greens' votes would have been considerably higher. As it was many Canadian Green supporters would have felt obligated to cast their vote for other less preferable candidates in order to prevent even worse candidates from winning. Indeed Elizabeth May herself made this reasonable suggestion to many of her supporters and was for having done so.

Very frequently, where first-past-the-post electoral systems are employed, electorates (or what are referred to as 'ridings' in Canada) are saddled with representatives who are strongly opposed by the majority of electors. On quite a few occasions whole countries in which the first-past-the-post system is used, governments, which have been strongly opposed by the majority of electors, have been able to win office. This has happened on a number of occasions in the UK, Canada and the US.

A very simple remedy to this is the preferential voting system practiced in Australia. (In the US, where it has not yet been adopted, it is referred to by its proponents as "instant run-off".) The electors simply place numbers starting from 1 in the boxes for each of the listed candidates in the order of their preference. If their most preferred candidate does not achieve a majority and receives the least number of votes, then that vote is added to the tally of the candidate which has that voter's second preference. This process continues until one candidate achieves an outright majority.

It only requires a small amount of additional work to count preferential votes.

Preferential voting is not necessarily the same as proportional representation in which a number of candidates can be elected to each constituency, thereby allowing parties with smaller support to win representation. In countries like Canada proportional representation would almost certainly allow minor parties such as the Greens to achieve some representation as they do in various local, state and national parliaments in Australia.

Whether the preferential voting system is adopted in its single- or multiple-member-constituency forms, there is absolutely no justification for Canada or any country to persist with the first-past-the-post system. It is a stupid anachronism that should long ago have been consigned to the garbage bin. That it has not been made a greater issue in countries like Canada, the UK and the US is astonishing.

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VCAT is not about consultation or serving the community to improve planning and living standards, but to help developers cram more people and infrastructures into Melbourne in line with the Melbourne 2030 plan! More people means more "prosperity", for developers and businesses, and governments. The allusive prosperity is not for the average person - their financial, housing and lifestyles are deteriorating! Councils, representing the rate-payers, should be the best source of how to balance community needs. However, they are easily over-ridden by VCAT. They are not about democracy but about State government bureaucracy and heavy-handed tactics to rake in more stamp duty, charges and taxes.

It was interesting to note that Water Minister Peter Garrett approved the North South Pipeline [which permits Melbourne Water to extract 75 megalitres of Eildon Dam water a year] before the high security foodbowl irrigators were granted 4% of their allocation. It's worth remembering that 42% of Australia's food comes from the Murray Darling Basin. Irrigators pay for their water allocation irrespective of whether they get 100% of their allocation or they get nothing. Irrigators water bills can be $36,000 even when there is no water available. Melbourne Water will report on the amount of water extracted from the Murray Darling Basin after the water is taken.

Australia's enlightened electoral laws require that everyone is legally obliged to vote in Federal elections. I'm not certain about other state/territory jurisdictions, but in the ACT voting is also mandatory. With elections upon us tomorrow, I was intrigued by a conversation between father and (adult) son overheard at my bus stop the other day. It went like this: Son: "Do we HAVE to vote on Saturday?" Father: "Yep" Son: "Really?" Father: "It'll only take 10 minutes. Stop whingeing. Have you decided who you're voting for?" Son: "Dunno. Who's it between?" Father: "Liberal and Labor" Son: "Donkey vote for me." Father: "Mmmm.." Which is good luck if you happen to be the first candidate on the ballot paper. But not so healthy for democracy I think. This time around there is one party running with a reasonable and on that basis I'm happy to get out and support them. I've always been attracted to the idea of participation rather than representation as the basis of democracy, but this incident gave me pause for thought. Is the apathy so evident in the son a result of his distance from the workings of whole democratic process? Is his ignorance a danger to any future effort to encourage greater participation? .

James, the following statement by Biodiversity First President Brishen Hoff should suffice except I will say this. Polls show that Harper has no chance of forming a majority government. Secondly, as I have shown in two articles, the opposition parties, are actually worse for the environment if you look at it objectively, despite their green rhethoric. Our group has NO interest in proportional representation, as it deals only with the distribution of power BETWEEN political parties. We are only concerned with radical reform that would re-direct power FROM politicians to the people in the form of popular initiatives (referenda) modelled by several US states. Polls consistently have shown that the public have little use for government forced population growth. Witness Katherine Betts' latest study and US, British and Canadian poll results on immigraton. An official attitude of neutrality in this election is a victory for the Liberals, NDP and Greens. They really deserve a vote for Harper, if truth be told. But he doesn't deserve our support either, obviously. Here's what Brishen had to say: October 13, 2008 Why I won't be voting in tomorrow's federal election I am not apathetic. I care about the issues. Some issues are more important to me than others. The economy is far less important to me than the environment. Any economic problem is fixable unless environmental limits are the reason for the problem. More money can always be printed and/or moved around with taxes and subsidies. Environmental problems are much more serious. Species extinctions, pollution, alien species invasions, loss of farmland, and deforestation can't be fixed within a lifetime if ever. My criterion is the environment. I want to vote for whatever party will prove that they will not let biodiversity or natural resources per capita decline any further. But all of the parties have the same position on the environment. In Canada, all parties are committed to growthism -- endless human population growth in a finite world. All parties wish to reward and encourage the overpopulated nations by letting them export their people here and giving them foreign aid so that they will breed more. As people move from countries of high concentration to countries of lower concentration such as Canada, global overpopulation is maximized. As people move to countries like Canada where consumption per capita is high due to our cold climate, they almost always multiply their ecological footprint. There are only four parties in my riding: Liberal, Conservative, Green and NDP. None of them have a population policy based on what they believe to be an optimum population for Canada. They all share the same religious belief. They all believe that 33 million people isn't enough for Canada and are determined to destroy more of Canada's wilderness ecosystems, biodiversity, and farmland with the additional of more consumers. They say we need more people because Canadians lac k the skill to fill abundant jobs that are going begging. They say that we need more people because Canada's population is aging and that old people are more expensive than young people. They say that we need a younger work force to pay for the pensions of the old. They say that Canada needs multiculturalism. But their prescription is not a solution if it requires population growth. Population growth is unsustainable. Immigrants get old too. Who will pay for their pensions? Cultures assimilate. How long can we keep injecting more people for multiculturalism? If good jobs are so abundant, why are so many Canadians unemployed, underpaid or overworked? Is flooding the workforce with cheap labour right for Canadians or just corporations? Isn't there an ecological limit to growth? Why haven't politicians told us where they are taking this country? Are they taking us to 40 million? 100 million? 1 billion? Where will we import our resources from once we lack sufficient farm land to feed ourselves? How will we heat our homes when our oil, natural gas, and forests are gone? Surely, even in the mind of a politician, there comes a point where further population growth is no longer in our best interest. Why don't they tell us what this point is or what metric they would use to determine it? How many more species extinctions are considered perfectly acceptable to them? All of the political parties believe that the biodiversity loss we have suffered is perfectly acceptable because they all would like to order more of the same -- population growth. Human population and biodiversity are negatively correlated. That is scientific fact. For me to vote for a party, they must at very minimum promise population stabilization if not population reduction. However, the Greens, NDP, Conservatives and Liberals all promise the doom and gloom of more population growth. Either we stop population growth voluntarily while we st ill have some quality of life left, or nature will stop it for us in cruel ways such as starvation and wars over scarce resources. I am on strike. I won't be voting until either: A) there exists a party who plans to voluntarily stop population growth B) a "direct democracy" allows me to vote on the issues directly instead of flaky political personalities like Harper, Dion, May and Layton

Tim,

I am not an expert on Canada, but if we had not removed John Howard Australia's equivalent of Stephen Harper, this country would effectively be a dictatorship today. That creep squandered over in taxpayers money in order to indoctrinate Australians into accepting the his slave labour (so-called) Work Choices legislation that he had not even put to them in the previous 2004 elections. Had he gotten away with this and won the 2007 elections an unbelievably dangerous precedent would have been set (and this is only one of a large number of examples I could give). It may well have undermined the morale of grass roots activists for years and his power would have been entrenched practically forever.

Obviously Kevin Rudd leaves a great deal to be desired and his raising of immigration levels was particularly concerning. Nevertheless, having asserted in 2007 the principle that corrupt incompetent governments prepared to spend almost unlimited amounts of taxpayers' funds to keep themselves in office can indeed be thrown out, we are in a much stronger position to stand up against high immigration and other anti-environmental policies of this Government. Indeed Rudd is at this moment cutting back immigration, due in part to the fact that he is a little more vulnerable to activism than a re-elected Howard/Costello dictatorship would have been.

So, I suggest you think very carefully about what is at stake in these elections in Canada. If Harper is anything like our former Prime Minister John Howard, then Canadian democracy itself may be at stake, and if you lose that then you lose any ability to control your population. (Clearly Canada's totally brain dead first-past-the-past voting system doesn't help either. Its replacement with some form of preferential voting system, that at least makes far less likely the possibility that a political party opposed by the majority of Canadians will able to form government, must be fought for as a matter of utmost urgency.)

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Tim, Your article, "The facts are in folks: We Don't Need Growth To Get Rich" is a comprehensive and persuasive refutation of the growthist pap served up to us daily by the mainstream media and government p.r. Thanks. Sheila Newman, population sociologist

Just goes to show how the law of averages works.. even the most biased and wrong commentators get something right once in a while.

Whether technological advances increase our environmental footprint depends on the nature of the technology. I agree that in general, technology has tended to increase humanity's impact over the last 100 years. However, while I=PAT is perfectly valid, advances in technology do not always result in a higher environmental impact. The examples of integrated pest management vs widespread use of extremely toxic sprays and photovoltaics vs coal fired power stations demonstrate the point. So T can either increase or decrease I, depending on how environmentally appropriate the technology is. From a mathematical point of view, then, advances in T can result in a multiplier of either; . more than one (net harm to the environment), . one (no change in environmental impact over the previous technology) or, . a fraction of one (reduced environmental impact over previous technology) This puts technology (T) in a separate category to either population (P) or affluence (A). 'Advances' in population (ie growth) can only increase our impact, if the other factors remain the same. Likewise, increases in consumption levels - or affluence - must result in greater environmental impact if the other factors remain the same. In a 6 page spread dedicated to the environmental impact of population growth, I think Suzuki could have spared a paragraph to explore this in more detail.

Professor Garnaut’s final report says that Australia’s greenhouse emissions can be reduced dramatically if logging of native forests and land-clearing are stopped immediately. Being logged in the past does not justify doing it again! Forests are the homes and habitats of many native species, many of them endangered at a time of great species losses. Japan is covered with forests and they consider them to be sacred. A pity our Western culture doesn't have the same attitude! We don't see forests - instead we see trees and profits!

If something is good, more of it can be bad! This certainly applies to our immigration program. Not only is it stressing our infrastructure, our housing crisis, our water situation and adding to ecological stress, but it makes mockery of our attempts to address climate change. People and their livestock and technology are the main drivers of greenhouse gas emissions. Adding more people is just negating any progress in limiting emissions, and conservation attempts. Kevin Rudd is shallow and hypocritical. He is good on big gestures but lacks substance. With the drying up of our Murray-Darling food bowl, and with our over 10 year drought, the most foolish and irresponsible thing we could do is to keep adding people! We are already famous as exterminators of wildlife. Our ecosystem sustains all life, and the fact that so many species are disappearing is surely an indication that it is time to limit our growth. We can't keep growing our population and economy when our natural resources are finite.

Do you realise that up to, during and after the First World War Wielangta Forest was heavily and extensively logged? That there was a large township supporting the mill workers and their families? Do you also realise that there was no RFA during that time? Have you heard that no old growth trees were left, that a clearfelling practice was used? That was over 75-80 years ago. Have you seen it today? I am not saying that saving old growth forests is wrong and that conservation is wrong but what I am saying is get things in perspective. Some of Wielangta Forest just won't be logged because of its geological and topographical features. Its just not practical. Wielangta Forest has reclaimed the area itself in the last 70-odd years with no seeding or any of the modern reforestation practices in place. Where the township was is almost indistinguishable from the surrounding forest. There is extremely dense bush out there and in one place almost impenetrable, a place where the sun hardly ever shines. This forest has been logged and recovered, done in a correct and sustainable way forestry is an environmentally and economically viable industry. What about the area around Robertson's Bridge is that not a great place to see and enjoy? Left untouched by the road works passing through man ferns etc flourish and it is a fantastic short forest walk. 33.3% of Tasmania is already locked up by enviromentalists. The Hydro was stopped by environmentally emotional people and now loggers are attacked at their place of employment and equipment destroyed by environmental thugs. So, as parts may not be logged let the loggers do they job and leave emotions out of this particular area. Don't know so much about the beetles and unique flora, are they still there because there has been a major bushfire out there over 12 months ago and most of the bush was burnt out (remember Scamander's bushfires, it happened then).

If we want to keep Brisbane liveable - then Queensland Government especially The Minister for Local Government should stop being weak and change the Local Government laws, so he can sack Brisbane Council Lord Mayor and The Councillors of some and The Council CEO.

Collandale RMB 1420 Yarck Rd Gobur, VIC. 3719 collandale [AT] bigpond com 5th October, 2008 LETTER TO THE EDITOR PUMP IT TO MY DOOR BEFORE YOU STEAL IT FOR MELBOURNE’S TOILETS By using recognized, 10-year study periods, instead of only three severe drought years, and inclusion of the Yan Yean and Sugarloaf Reservoirs, deliberately left out of calculations, which supply 20% of Melbourne’s water, scientists have shown that Melbourne’s so called “water crisis” by 2010, is based on flawed figures supplied by the DSE. The DSE used a 10-year run and did not use the same 3-year methodology to determine water losses from evaporation and seepage in the irrigation channels, because it would have exploded government claims there could be a saving of 325 gigalitres under the modernization plan. Neil Rankin and good science has shown that even without restrictions to consumption, the excess of supply to Melbourne’s water storages would be 60% to 100% by 2016. Even Tim Flannery has labeled the reasoning as bullshit. It has also been shown that had the runoff from the Glenmaggie Weir during the floods been diverted to the Thompson Dam, it would be 95% full now. Country people are only too aware that climate change is occurring and Melbourne will require further water supplies, but there are many ways of ensuring this, closer to home, than pumping it from a low-rainfall area to a high-rainfall area at great expense to taxpayers and even greater expense to the environment, by this panicked government. The pipeline to Bendigo is not operating from any so called “water savings” but being fed by reserves for Lake Eildon whose supply, the Goulburn River, dried up above the weir last year. Is it any wonder, therefore, that Victorians north of the Divide are passionate about stopping the North-South pipeline to Melbourne, although supportive of the irrigation upgrades and modernisation? When did sharing become taking from those who have not and giving it to those who have? Country Victorians are generous, caring people who would be only too willing to share if there was an abundance of supply. We live on the land and know that the rainfall is insufficient to support this expensive white elephant. You see, in our situation, like many country people, we rely solely on rain water for our house and dam water for our garden. In the last ten years the water supply which used to cater easily for a family of eight, including babies and teenagers, is no longer able to support just the two of us. We are lucky if one of our 8000 gallon tanks fills in a given year now. If both are not full by November we need to cart during the summer. Due to the driest September on record it appears that we will be carting water for the entire summer this year. Our dam usually evaporates by the time we need it the most, we have not watered the garden for five years. Unlike Melbourne, who Mr Brumby would like to see return to the supply they had before water restrictions, we literally run out of water on a regular basis, anything from two to six times in a season. I am quite sure that no Melbourne person has ever had to be without any water at all while they waited up to 3 days for a water contractor, especially during the fire season, to cart dirty Goulburn River water to fill their tanks. This means we are unable to flush the toilet, clean our teeth, wash ourselves or our clothes, cook or even make a cup of tea, unless we use muddy dam water by the bucketful or the frozen bottles we keep on hand at all times for emergencies. Once the tank is filled and we can only fill one because it costs over $250.00 a time, the tanker pump is so strong it stirs up the sludge in the bottom of the tank which mixes with the river water. This is quite unusable for drinking or food purposes for up to a week and it is very unpleasant to bathe ourselves or wash our clothes in water that visibly holds dirt particles and the toilet turns black. We were even advised during 2005 that the Goulburn was so low the contractor did not believe he could supply a further delivery as his hoses could not reach clean, potable water. That year we carted water for 9 months. I put it to Mr Brumby and Mr Holding that it would cost less than the poorly estimated $750 million of tax payers money, to ensure that every country Victorian home has a water supply and clean potable, Goulburn River water to drink and more urgent than pumping water to Melbourne to flush toilets and wash cars. After all it would not cost much to run a pipe 30 kilometres from the Goulburn River to my home in a true state water grid, especially with fudged figures. This might seem an unrealistic project, but no more so than the expensive North-South pipeline. I believe that country Victorians have the right to expect to be brought into the 21st century before this huge amount of money is unwisely spent, which it has been shown will not deliver the amount of water savings projected by the government. As most irrigators remain on 0% to 4% of their irrigation rights and the so called “water savings” are to be made from this irrigated water and as rainfall for September is the lowest on record, any thinking person can see that this project is doomed to failure. I firmly believe that as the DSE and Goulburn Water, who will have the final say on whether water flows in the pipe or not, will be the bodies to report to Mr Holding whether savings have been made or not and have a vested interest in the outcome of their projections, figures will again be fudged, water will flow down that pipe regardless and stolen from an already stressed water system. At the very least give us an independent Federal body to assess whether the claims that are made are accurate. This government cannot be trusted, they have fudged figures and lied about the North-South pipleline and have even broken their election promise not to take water from north of the Divide. We are tired of their ill-informed, diatribe of self-justification. Labor is relying on the fact that farmers are too busy to protest and those who do so are arrested and thrown off their own land like Deb Bertalli or verbally abused as liars, ugly, ugly people or quasi-terrorists. One poor farmer stated he could not afford to go to jail as he needs to milk his cows twice a day. Mr Brumby lies when he states that only a handful of Victorians are opposed to the pipeline. Every poll taken by newspapers so far has shown 95% of Victorians are opposed to it. Check out the recent one in the Weekly Times. The water just doesn’t exist for this ill-fated, ill-planned, ill-costed, environmentally disastrous, expensive white elephant of a pipeline being forced on us by a dictatorship. Melbourne, if you could not live on my water supply and under the conditions that I do, stand up in force for your country cousins, join us in our stance, make your voices heard as well. Tell this government to consider other more suitable options including the proposed dams in the wet areas of the state as put forward by the Opposition. United, we can still stop it. Please, please, help. Colleen Jones.

Sheila's article about the media and migration is spot on the money. It highlights the dangers of the high concentration of media ownership in Australia. The media distort so much of what goes on here and politicians are too scared to take them on. Well done Brumby but only a few years ago, you will find he was boasting abt Victoria's great population growth rates. Now he sows what he reaped. Diversity of media is vital to our future if we are not to become an oppressed corporate dictatorship. In Sydney against 80 per cent of what polled voters said, all major commercial news and radio media were in favour of the power sell off. Even just this Thursday the pathetic Sydney Morning Herald couldn't bring itself to identify immigration as the cause of infrastructure, housing and over crowding problems in Sydney. And Tanya Plibersek, the well off Labor housing minister tried to blame our homeless crisis on divorcees recently and not excessive immigration levels. There is a powerful sectional interest alliance that is over riding the will of the majority of the people and I fear social unrest in the not too distant future. Rent rage reports have hit the Sydney media recently but good old Tanya blames the divorcees. Another great lie from Tycoon Labor.

To the attention of Mr. Rajendra Pachauri (IPCC) and of the international Media: DELIVERY OF THE PRIZE FOR THE MOST EXHILARATING FOOLISHNESS OF THE YEAR For having acquired the global attention telling that a meatless day keeps global warming at bay: while his Country has the tremendous demographic density of 336 inhabitants per km², about 1,103,371,000 human beings on an area of 3,287,263 km²: It is about a sixth of the whole population of the Earth on an area of hardly 45 times little the whole land available on the planet, with an economy in (socially absolutely just and necessary) rapid growth. For having told to the global, mostly unaware, audience that eating less meat is a good practice but forgetting to say that to stop producing children is the priority for all the people of the world. We have in fact essentially only ONE PROBLEM on the Earth and this problem, that generates a lot of enormous negative EFFECTS: pollution, scarsity and higher and higher prices of the resources, misery, social degradation, conflicts and wars, is the OVERPOPULATION. By eating less meat we can lightly slow down some problems but we cannot resolve neither prevent the increase of any one of them. As an example, by eating less meat we certainly cannot resolve this other problem evidenced by Mr. Pachauri: Pachauri Says India May Allow Private Companies in Atomic Power Less meat but with the taste of the atomic power: what a wonderful world, Mr. Pachauri, you are dreaming about! If tens of years ago a limitation of births was sufficient to not have any problem, for responsibility of a general cospiracy of silence the global demographic situation is gotten worse and worse. The world population has nearly tripled, causing also an insane overgrowth of the economies of the developed Countries through the exponential increase of the working forces and the expansion of the markets. Today we humans have therefore a precise priority: exclusively through information and education media and events, not obligating or prohibiting but simply by informing and educating, simply through arts, with books, movies, poetries, pictures, songs, we must STOP BIRTHS NOW! Only in this way we will succeed to stop hunger, diseases, poverty, degradation, pollution and wars. For all that, the Italian Eudaemony social researches Laboratory attributes the prize for the most exhilarating foolishness of the year to Mr. Rajendra Pachauri. The prize consists in a debt that the same Mr. Rajendra Pachauri has contracted towards the whole world. This debt precisely is: Say the truth, Mr. Pachauri, tell ALL THE TRUTH! Warmest regards, Danilo D'Antonio Laboratorio Eudemonia Piazza del Municipio 64010 Rocca S. M. TE - Italy Note on the Lab The Eudaemony Laboratory is NOT renowned for having developed some of the most significative products and proposals of social innovation of our time: If the Eudaemony Laboratory would have told foolishnesses like this of Mr. Pachauri it would be renowned all around the world! Please, apologies our correctness and wisdom.

Rod Simpson, a Sydney architect commenting on our burgeoning population growth, states that "we are structurally dependent on immigration because of the ageing population." There would not be a conflict of interest if developers declared Australian cities "full"? Australia is already over-populated, and the stress on our ecosystem is already showing by the threats to the Great Barrier Reef and Murray Darling food bowl. Failings of our ecosystem will be exacerbated with climate change overlayed on top, and our "ageing population" will in hindsight be a mere economic "bump" compared to the monumental sized catastrophe of dwindling water supplies, prolonged droughts and heat when our over-heavy population suffer from food and water shortages! Australian citizens are being manipulated by our leaders who are masterminding our futures, and using people as pawns as if we were part of a massive board game! The liveability of the average person is deteriorating while the Economy, our Master, is "winning".

I find it hard to believe that technological change will add up overall to improvements when we have, for instance, replaced durable and reliable clockwork technology for watches with disposable high-tech, materials intensive, toxic-battery-fed electronic watches. These new watches are redundant for most purposes and they have become the source of mountains of indigestible rubbish. And we keep adding to these mountains as we provide for a growing population which has been taught to consume all manner of fuel-intensive technology without regard to the fact that all this consumption is degrading the environment upon which our basic survival depends.

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