General MacArthur and His Island-Hopping Strategy: The EROEI for Internet duels with Growthist Fools is Negative

James, I wouldn't dispute that online debates with fools doubt have some value, the only question is do they yield enough value for the energy we expend on extracting it? The very same question that any gold miner would ask. I am not the tenacious internet warrior you are, by any means, but two of my colleagues are of your callibre. Persistent, incisive, caustic. I have seen them battle PC morons and moderators for days on end on several threads until the topic is closed. I have copied the debates and highlighted some passages. Then round two comes up three weeks later wth another permutation and some of the same cast of fools reappear unreconstructed. Eventually, some months down the road, my collegues are banished from the forum. Time spent on these marathons was time not spent on blog articles and essays, or networking. I am not convinced these on line debates enjoy much readership. The one valuable online debate we did have was the one with Dr. Bill Rees. That was a debate that, while it ended unsatisfactorily, provided much clarification of his position on immigration, and carrying capacity and biodiversity. Summarizing these experiences is a very good idea. There is another species of debate. Rigourous debate WITHIN the Malthusian ranks. That as we know, can be testy enough, but at least it is within the parameters of consensus and objective reality. Every participating knows that we are in overshoot. We don't have waste hours arguing with people that don't accept that 2 plus 2 equals 4. The 3 day debate just concluded in our group about whether Hunter Gatherer societies enjoyed a better EROEI compared to early civilizations was a masterpiece. I will be saved and archived on Biodiversity for all who visit the website to refer to. THOSE are the debates that certainly are worthwhile. And debates with the Andrew Bartletts (and Bill Rees) of this world are mandatory for what they reveal. No argument there. Perhaps then, I could excuse you forays into these skirmishes as dress rehearsals or sparring matches to hone your debating skills for the moment when you will face someone on camera at a Brisbane city election or something of that nature. The sophistries you hear on this threads come up over and over again, don't they? I do wish I had your stamina and I am glad that there is someone in the movement to go in there and give them hell. PS I subscribe to Michael Shermer's Skeptic Magasine. I have read his books and find him entertaining. However, he does have his blind spots. I am a skeptic by nature. But am skeptical about skepticism as well. (eg. If placebo medicine works, who cares why?) Do you know Shermer is a cornucopean too? He advocates what he calls a "Type 1 Civilization with a completely global economy with free markets where everyone can trade with everyone else, based on wireless Internet access." There is not a black cloud on his horizon. Everyone, all 15 billion of us, will always be on the grid to keep our personal computers running, so that we can keep in touch with each other and conduct those commercial transactions we need to make for an ever-flowing amount of goods and services. Shermer declares that he is an optimist. (Toward a Type 1Civilization July 22, 2008 Skeptics Society) Tim